Saturday, 11 May 2013

Heralds of the Second Coming




I've just finished reading Stephen Walford's excellent new book Heralds of the Second Coming. The main focus of Walford's unique work is to sift through and collect together various important papal documents which reveal the eschatological thought of the popes of the modern era. In doing so, it provides the reader with an insight into the end-times theology of the select few people who are not only the most authoritative on this subject, but also the best informed - the successors of St. Peter. Heralds of the Second Coming branches out into several other areas of relevance to this subject, such as the apocalyptic literature of the Bible, and a choice number of Church-approved private revelations. This detailed exposition of the eschatological thought of contemporary Church leaders highlights the urgency in which this matter is held, calling on all of us to be "watchmen of the new dawn".
A great strength of this book is that it roots itself firmly within the bounds of orthodox Catholic theology, and completely eschews any millenarian tendencies. In doing so, it plots an eschatological trajectory almost identical to the future timeline outlaid in my own work on this subject, making it a perfect accompaniment to Unveiling the Apocalypse. Especially given Walford's belief that the wars of the 20th century are identical with Jesus' prophecy in the Olivet discourse, concerning the "wars and rumours of wars" that must precede His final coming. By outlining the fact that the popes of war-torn Europe expressed this very same opinion in several papal documents, Heralds of the Second Coming provides an independent testimony to the importance of the horrors of the 20th century in relation to this closing chapter of the history of salvation.
This is an essential resource for any serious student of Catholic eschatology, and a book that I will be referring back to time and again.

Stephen Walford has also started a highly informative blog, which can be found at his website http://divinemercypopes.com/, and readers of the comments section will recognise his contribution here under the username Rachmaninov.

159 comments:

Jamey said...

Order from Book depository arrived a few days ago.

Haven't seen Anne around here lately - would be nice to hear from you if you still drop in.

mum6kids said...

I hope this will become available for Kindle. My shoddy eyesight won't allow print books unless the type is WAY big these days.
I'm reading your book at the moment.

I am interested by your take on the new Israel c.1948. You say that it would be hoped that the horrors of the holocaust would have meant the Jews of Israel would never want something to happen to others like that.
But I wonder. 1948 was straight after the war and the scars and grief must have been unimaginable among those who survived and went to Israel. They went knowing that the two major players in the slaughter were Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
That must have played some psychological role in their behaviour don't you think?
The Wall has been a terrible thing, especially for Christians in Bethlehem, but as a Hebrew Catholic once told me mothers in Israel were putting their children onto separate school buses so that if one bus was blown up by a terrorist at least one or two of her children would live. So many school buses were blown up it was a desperate survival act. The wall has reduced the slaughter of school children dramatically.
Israel is handling things very badly in a lot of ways. It's essentially an athiest Govt. But they are in a horrible situation.

I agree with you that there has to be some kind of eschatalogical role for the new Jerusalem (heard Roy Schoeman speak on this briefly once)
I am enjoying the book. You've done a lot of research and prayer by the looks of it.
God bless
Shellx

benjoyce said...

see www.locutions.org for a lot of information concerning Israel.

You can find your answer by private revelation from the desk of Mons. Esseff who was the spiritual director of Mother Teresa of Calcutta's Order for 30 years. This supports the varacity of these private revelations.

Pope Francis will concecrate Russia to the IH of Mary AND will (as directed from God) to move the papacy to Jerusalem. Francis will be pope for "several years" (or was it a few? years)

When in Jerusalem, he will be martyred by "weapons" and the Jews will be moved and they will convert. Bishops with faith will stay in Jerusalem and the others will go back to Rome (ie schism)

concerning private revelation: Two canons were removed by Pope Paul VI in '66 requiring an imprimatur for publication of PR. I believe this was prompted by the Holy Spirit for the end times.

See what Jesus says by locution to a directee of Fr. Esseff.

find these at www.locutions.org

Nov. 25th 2012 -Jesus states: "You must learn to hear my voice now. When the events come, I will speak to you and guide you. Before then, you must grow accustomed to my voice. Many would see this as extraordinary, but the events will be extraordinary and the helps that you will need must also be extraordinary."

Mary- " Another hour of darkness is coming upon the whole earth and there is only one place to survive, in my Immaculate Heart where God has stored up all my mystical favors. These favors are also for you. You will need them in the darkness and you must find them now. When the darkness comes, you will not be able to discover your way". Locutions.org March 21st 2012.

The Virgin Mary states in the Fr. Gobbi's book: #154m, June 3rd 1978 "Whoever does not enter into this refuge (her Immaculate Heart) will be carried away by the great tempest which has already begun to rage."

www.Locutions.org -Mary-Nov 22, 2012 "..... Even if you have only turned to me a few days before the events, even if it is just a very short time that you are on your new road, it will be enough. You will have found the right road before the events. When the events begin, it will be very, very difficult to choose the right road. Begin now."

Basicly, at some point in time, not having faith will be a death sentence. But hasn't -not having faith- always been a "death sentence"?

Emmett O'Regan said...

Hi Shell,

Glad you are enjoying the book! I agree, desperate times call for desperate measures, and a lot of the actions of the Israelis were done out of necessity for survival. I just wanted to make it clear in the book that have sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians as well, many of whom are Christians. There has been a massive displacement of Christians in the Middle East over the past century.
With further research on this subject, I'm becoming more and more convinced of the eschatological role of the creation of the modern state of Israel. It also seems to be linked to the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, and the future conversion of the Jews. My blog post earlier in the year concerning Our Lady of Fatima and the Jewish Holocaust ties into this:

http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/our-lady-of-fatima-and-jewish-holocaust.html

Roy Schoeman's book "Salvation is from the Jews" is also quite excellent.

Rachmaninov said...

publisher intends to get it out in about 6 weeks or so.
Thanks to Emmett for his very kind words about my book and for taking the time to read and review it. I hope that in a little way it can contribute to the very important task of discerning the Book of Revelation and its relevance to us in this era.
www.divinemercypopes.com

benjoyce said...

Emmett

I don't want to do or say anything out of order/inappropriate. But I have a website which I have put together where I have culled various sources of private revelation.

I will revise this site soon especially in light of the "amillinarianist" view which you and your collaborators have put forth.

my site is www.catholicprophecy.net

If I am out of order than you can remove this message.

Like many of us. I am trying to move the world in the correct direction.

Ben

Sr. Lorraine said...

Thanks, Emmett, for the clarification about Israel. That is of great interest.

Ben, those locutions are rather remarkable. What they said about the Pope being elected seemed to really be on target.
I am puzzled though about the part concerning moving the papacy back to Jerusalem, given the 2000 year tradition of it being in Rome. However, if some kind of really devastating war comes to Europe, maybe Rome would be leveled or something and that would necessitate the move. What do others think about this?

Keith said...

Interesting... perhaps the Papacy moves back to Israel after the conversion of the Jews, before or during the persecution of the anti-Christ?

Just speculating...

Anonymous said...

Sr. Lorraine, at first the locutions to the world gave before Pope Francis was elected, that there would be supernatural signs that this pope would be truly elected by God. Other than the supposed lightning strikes and it is a stretch, there were no other supernatural signs. In fact, locutions predicted a long conclave. We know that it was super quick instead. After Pope Francis was elected, locutions pretty much went dormant on papal pronouncements. Another catholic commentator noticed the same trend. Now , that Pope Francis is Marian is not in doubt with his Fatima consecration. But John Paul II was Marian too, and yet things are not quite in line with Catholic prophecies. I will be honest. I found that the Malachy prophecy, the Garanbandal prophecy, etc has pretty much been shot down. Now I see people who make a living doing this kind of analysis, having to revise their thinking and theories. Unfortunately, the Book of Revelation is mysterious in its language. We won't know what God meant until AFTER the events happen. God Bless you.

Jamey said...

I personally liked the locutions.org til I saw the comment about the authenticity of Medjugorje.

Francis looking better by the day - joined pro life rally in Rome, God bless him is willing to get his hands dirty combined with simple straight forward preaching. My aunt was telling me about her charismatic Church and how it goes into the city to bring wayward youth to Jesus and away from a life of the flesh, drugs and alcohol. Apart from a handful of prolifers the Catholic Church has been living too comfortably in recent times at least in western nations and I am guilty of this too - Francis' comments about priests spending too much time in the sacristy leading to a sick Church is so true and relevant.

Todays consecration will surely be significant. For many traditionalists Francis' election seemed to mark the moment where all was lost however now I think we are seeing a turning point where Mary's intercession is becoming evident. There has allegedly been a clamping down on communion in the hand at his Masses.

benjoyce said...

anonymous.....

"Long Conclave" was the title that Mons. Esseff gave that particular locution. One must distinguish between actual locution quote and a label given to it by the sp. director. See how people mess up private revelation?

Now that I look, I think the title was changed to "A successful conclave" 3/10/13 Mons. Esseff doesn't want to misguide people.

Jamey- I've been told by a very reliable source that Pope Francis personally visited Medjugorje in 2006. It appears that the pope will do something to give Medjugorje more support. Even approve it.

Jamey said...

"Jamey- I've been told by a very reliable source that Pope Francis personally visited Medjugorje in 2006. It appears that the pope will do something to give Medjugorje more support. Even approve it."

Someone from MedjugorjeTV?

A guy from Church with a connection in Rome said that MariaDivineMercy has been officially condemned by the bishop - haven't found anything on the net, though should come out in due course if true.

Another guy from my parish went and saw a bloke speaking on MDM's behalf a few weeks ago - apparently she was too sick to come. He said she had cancer in both breasts but when going in for double mastectomy Jesus appeared to her and said she was healed - however if she went ahead and had the surgery done numerous souls would be saved. Would Jesus appear to someone asking them to amputate healthy body parts? I understand redemptive suffering but this seems off.

Anonymous said...

Benjoyce - thank you on your points. You basically made my point that private revelation gets messed up, which is why the RCC disregards most of it. Even approved ones are not required to be believed in. As for Medjugorje, Jamey is right that there are major question marks on this apparition (Vicka blinking just gets me). On another catholic website favorable to Medjugorje, they dismissed that "issue" by saying that someone in ecstasy, is not totally immune to external stimuli. The other problem is that phony excuse she gave at the time of why she reacted. And Jamey, the Good Lord does not ask people to amputate healthy body parts - I agree with you.

benjoyce said...

wait a second Sr. Faustina's private revelation got messed up and it was avoided for a while. But avoiding it was a big mistake and it was corrected.

ok some Private revelations are good some are bad. That's par for the course.

Jesus tells Vassulla that rejecting private revelation "is a mortal sin"

interesting

Fr. Iannuzzi supports Vassulla
I used to like MDM but exited that one. Sometimes you have to wait for the devil to show his tail

we shouldn't get into a pissing match over private revelations.

benjoyce said...

Pope Paul VI abrogated two cannon laws which required one to have an imprimatur to publish and circulate private revelations. It appears that, that is what the Holy Spirit wanted since the Church would act as a bottle neck of movement of the Holy Spirit whose intersession will be huge in the future. In fact acording to Locutions.org if you do not "hear" Jesus and Mary you will not find your way, implying death

Anonymous said...

"Fr. Iannuzzi supports Vassulla
I used to like MDM but exited that one. Sometimes you have to wait for the devil to show his tail"

It should go for supporters too, shouldn't it?

not that I ever believed in locutions or vassula, or most of the private revelations, for that matter

benjoyce said...

Usually when a supporter gets a private revelation wrong his intentions were good but using the church as a guide he can circumvent the bad ones.

Usually when nay-sayers reject nearly all prophecy, it's an insult to God and usually is the result of massive intellectual pride. (they are afraid of being wrong- paranoid about someone being smarter than they are) Like the pharasees grace just bounces off these people.

If you compared the number of people who gained the catholic faith or had their faith increased due to private revelation. Verses, those who lost their faith due to false private revelation. Those who gained faith swamps those lost faith. Medjugorje is an example. 50 million visitors and thousands of vocations.

This is in keeping with pope ?boniface XIII who said, If you sincerely believe in a private revelation and it turns out to be false, you gain the grace as if it had been true.

Jamey said...

The problem is Ben, the apparitions/locutions that are ongoing in the current environment would have been condemned within weeks/months in saner times. The key to Medj I think is the early messages, scandal before they got smart - there are so many problems you could poke a stick at. There was the priest the "Gospa" said was a saint but in actuality was a sexual deviant. She would be there 3 days, 30+ years later still going. One of the seers lying why they went out to the original location (was really to have a smoke and listen to rock music). Then there was the request for a 100 bed hotel. As anon mentions and I think the big one was on camera for all to see, the seer blinking and then lying after - I could never imagine Sr Lucia, et al flat out lying. With all these problems I truly think to stay away is the logical course and not a matter of pride.

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/MedjugorjiLies.html

If Medjugorje is true anything could be. I liked Medjugorje I believed it but the evidence lead elsewhere. I still believe God is merciful, I believe aborted babies go to heaven or at least a very nice place - these are things that appeal to me from some modern messages but then invariably there are the time bombs thrown in and they all seem to come back to Medjugorje.

With MDM the strangest thing I read was when "Jesus" referred to Gadaffi as "My son Muammar".

Anonymous said...

"Usually when nay-sayers reject nearly all prophecy, it's an insult to God and usually is the result of massive intellectual pride. "

No, it is not. We are not obiged to believe in private revelations, especially not approved ones. Even approved ones do not carry the weight of dogma, but at least they have the approval.

The more I read about the apparitions and the more I read people's comments on ones, the more I get the impression, that for the vast majority of apparitions worshippers those prophecies become more important than than anything else, including Our Lord and His teachings.

Sorry, if this offends you, just my own impressions not from this blog only.

mum6kids said...

Thanks Emmett for the link I will read it carefully.

I read Salvation is from the Jews some time ago I thought it was fascinating.

I understand your stance on the plight of the Palistinians and especially from and American POV as there seems more "Israel can do no wrong" views over there.
I recommend Aid to the Churc In Need to help Christians in Bethlehem and around that area. They do amazing work in very difficult circumstances.
Also some of you maight be interested in the Institute of Catholic Culture lecture from Archbishop Elias Chacour.

http://www.instituteofcatholicculture.org/complete-library/

On private revelation: The Church is clear that private rev is not binding on the faithful even when approved, like Fatima.
Public revelation IS binding.
Approved private rev doesn't add to the Faith but it does give us a reminder and perhaps a holy kick up the backside sometimes. Ignoring something like the call to repentance and prayer at Fatima or the Divine Mercy message could indeed be rooted in pride - or fear even.
I think Vassula is on very dodgy ground saying ignoring private rev is a mortal sin. That's in contradiction to the Church.

On Medj. We'll see what the Church says in the end, but sadly I think it will be condemned.
I say "sadly" because, to be honest, I think the Church dropped the ball on this one.
At a time when so many of us grew up in a catechesis free zone through the '60s to very recently; leaving so many people vulnerable to something like Medj then the Vatican should have moved much earlier once it was obvious the bishop's condemnation wasn't making headway.
The disobedience of the seers who have been asked to be silent has turned me away, along with some other stuff.
The "nothing supernatural" declaration from the bishop leaves far too many unanswered questions. I know someone whose rosary turned to gold, and there's lots of spinning sun witnesses.
Just saying it's not supernatural is not good enough and shows a shocking lack of pastoral understanding.

I hope something will be put in place for believers in Medj if the decision is negative.

Anyway, enough rambling from me.
God bless
Shell

Tom said...

Just ordered a copy form Amazon. I should get it today. Looking forward to it, and I love Rach music!

Anonymous said...

Interesting article about Cardinal Schoborn commenting that there were supernatural signs in the conclave that Francis was to be elected. That does seem to tie to locutions. However, I thought locutions mentioned that the whole world would take notice? In a sense, that was true as no one expected Francis either. We will have to wait and see if he is truly the angelic shepherd or not.

Rachmaninov said...

Thanks very much Tom,
I hope you enjoy it. Please do let me know your thoughts.
God bless
Stephen
www.divinemercypopes.com

Jamey said...

Have read the first couple of chapters - it is so well summarised on where we are and how the situation got to where it has - so far it has a good balance in terms of what you decided to include/exclude. The chapters of the book seem well ordered and I can see much time went into this. When struggling to pray I can see myself returning again and again as a reminder of the point in history we are at - the collection of papal statements further hit home the gravity of our times. Kudos to you and Emmett, you guys have both answered a definite need with your works.

Shell, concurred with what you say. I also hope it won't be a non decision after years of investigation and 30 years of "apparitions". The most devout Novus Ordo Catholics I have come across tend to be Medjugorje followers. Pat Madrid thinks Medjugorje is diabolical - he believes the seers are in fact seeing something, so preternatural as you suggest by the gold rosaries and spinning sun phenom. Incidentally did you see the rosary that turned gold?

Tom, am also a fan of Rachmaninoff - one of the Lang Lang piano concerto performances on the Telarc label had me jumping to my feet and roaring at the conclusion. Telarc have outstanding sound quality.

Rachmaninov said...

Tom, Jamey,
glad you like Rachmaninov. I played the Third concerto with the Southampton Concert Orchestra in 2010
Its my favourite.
By the way I would be really grateful if you guys would consider writing me an amazon review if you felt it merited one.
Stephen
www.divinemercypopes.com

Anonymous said...

With all due respect, unless there is supernaturality evident in the world, Pope Francis will have no real authority. Yes, we could have a nuclear war, but there will be no "warning". To be honest, I used to get wrapped up in this stuff like you all are now. There will be other popes, other historical periods - God guarantees that. Your speculation is just that - speculation. When God restores His Shekinah glory, then we can start worrying about this stuff.

Anonymous said...

And the consecration to our Lady of Fatima. No mention of Russia of course, and NOTHING changing. Pope Francis is NOT the angelic shepherd, as God the Father refuses to glorify this pope. He is no different than any other pope. In time, he too will complain that God is asleep.....like Pope Benedict complained. Not exactly a show of support. What a shame.

Anonymous said...

oh, my, a crunchy cat

we should start numbering the anonymouses. I for one am not against the Pope and do not expect anything supernatural from him as well.

anonymous 11

:-)

Jamey said...

Anon 6 said: "There will be ... other historical periods - God guarantees that. "

Not necessarily

Also said: "Your speculation is just that - speculation."

Not necessarily

benjoyce said...

The BVM says to Fr. Gobbi about 6 times that we will enter a "terrestrial paradise" and states "New Heavens and New Earth" many times. See example below.

Where does this fit in? It appears that we have Fr. Iannuzzi supporting a sort of "utiopia" that the fathers of the Church say which is abundently supported by private revelation which he says makes the interpretation of the bible "more explicit"

On the other hand you have Stephen and Emmett refuting the "utopia" and sticking with St. Augustine's view of not mentioning any utopia.

Here is an example of Fr. Gobbi's book MMP:

I've taken it from my website

www.catholicprophecy.net

BTW I'm not claiming to be a theologeon by any strech of the imagination


The earth will be transformed into a "terrestrial paradise"

(#435b-c). (BVM) ......Today I announce to you that there is about to be born the new Church of light.....The glorious reign of Christ, which will be established in your midst, with the second coming of Jesus in the world, is close at hand. This is his return in glory. This is his glorious return, to establish his reign in your midst and to bring all humanity, redeemed by his most precious blood, back to the state of his new terrestrial paradise. (The phrase, "terrestrial paradise" is mentioned 6 times in Fr. Gobbi's book of locutions)

"That which is being prepared is so great that its equal has never existed since the creation of the world.........I reveal my secret only to the hearts of the little, the simple and the poor, because it is being accepted and believed by them.

The task which I have entrusted to you #431f-l Mary- I am terrible as an army drawn up in battle array, because the task which has been entrusted to me by the Lord is that of conquering Satan; of crushing the head of the ancient serpent; of enchaining the huge Red Dragon and of casting him into his abyss of fire; of struggling with and the defeating the one who opposes himself to Christ, namely the Antichrist, in order to prepare the second coming of Jesus, who will restore his glorious reign among you."

This is my plan.

The stronger my presence becomes among you, the more will the darkness of evil, of sin, of hatred and of impurity withdraw themselves from you......
Then all creation, set free from the slavery of sin and of death will know the splendor of a second terrestrial paradise, in which God will dwell with you, will wipe away every tear, and there will no longer be day or night, because the former things have passed away and your light will be that of the Lamb and of the new Jerusalem come down from, heaven upon the earth. Ready as a bride for her Spouse."

benjoyce said...

Fr. Gobbi's book mentions the "Eucharistic reign" of Jesus 7 times

BIG QUESTION: DO YOU THINK FR. GOBBI'S LOCUTIONS FIT AS BEING THE HERESY OF MILLINARIANISM?

BVM....

#443u Eucharistic Reign of Jesus Feb 2, 1991 Today I ask all to throw open the doors to Jesus Christ who is coming. I am the Mother of the Second Advent and the door which is being opened on the new era. This new era will coincide with the greatest triumph of the Eucharistic Reign of Jesus.

The Virgin Mary speaks of the Eucharistic Reign of Jesus 7 times in Fr. Gobbi's book: Eucharistic reign ( 7 ): 360 v, 360 w, 387 m, 418 e, 421 m, 443 u, 505 j.

#360v “......The coming of the glorious reign of Christ will coincide with the greatest splendor of the Eucharist. Christ will restore his glorious reign in the universal triumph of his Eucharistic reign which will unfold in all its power and will have the capacity to change hearts, souls individuals, families, society and the very structure of the world.

w- When He will have restored his Eucharistic reign, Jesus will lead you to take joy in this habitual presence of his, which you will feel in a new and extraordinary way and which will lead you to the experience of a second, renewed and more beautiful earthly paradise.

We can expect the Second Pentecost- Tongues of Fire #546c-e June 4, 1995 .........In the spiritual cenacle of my Immaculate heart, the miraculous event of the second Pentecost must now be accomplished, implored and expected by you. Again there will descend upon the Church and upon all humanity miraculous tongues of fire. Tongues of divine fire will bring heat and life to a humanity which has now become cold from egoism and hatred, from violence and wars. Thus the parched earth will be opened to the breath of the Spirit of God, which will transform it into the new and wondrous garden in which the Most Holy Trinity will make its permanent dwelling place among you.
Tongues of fire will come down to enlighten and sanctify the Church which is living through its dark hour at Calvary.....

Rachmaninov said...

benjoyce,
please go to my site and see my analysis of Fr Gobbi's revelations. They actually do not support a millennium view-even though many priests and MMP members seem to think they do.Scroll down to the 2nd post.
http://divinemercypopes.com/?page_id=15
God bless
Stephen

Emmett O'Regan said...

Ben - all of those quotes either refer either to the "renavatio mundi" during the Second Pentecost (which takes place immediately before the coming of the Antichrist), or to the new creation after the Last Judgment. There will be an eternal paradise on earth after the Second Coming of Christ - but only at the General Resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgment. The creation of a 1000 year temporal paradise on earth before the Second Coming and Last Judgment is millenarianism. It seems to be a confusing concept for people who haven't studied theology.

Anonymous said...

"BIG QUESTION: DO YOU THINK FR. GOBBI'S LOCUTIONS FIT AS BEING THE HERESY OF MILLINARIANISM?"


YES.

anon11

Anonymous said...

added - not locutions themselves but his EXPLANATIONS.
Fr. Ianuzzi is straightforward mitigated millennianarian as well.
as is Mark mallett

anon11

Jamey said...

Anon11

This from Stephens site, Fr Gobbi seemed to believe in Milleniarism whilst his locutions didn't really support it:

"In the light of recent discussions on various forums concerning the error of Millenarianism and the obvious support for the theory promoted by not an insignificant number of people, I would like to show how the idea that modern prophetic mystics are saying the same thing is not true. The revelations given to Fr Gobbi do not support this view – even though Fr Gobbi himself supported this millennial view."

Jamey said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jamey said...

Stephen many thanks for that analysis it really helps - Fr Gobbi seems a holy man from what I have read but I had a couple of issues. Also my daughter who is full of questions about the Catholic faith was very distressed when I told her that whilst I didn't have certitude but that after Jesus' second coming this world would be destroyed for good, she will be very happy when I relate the following:

"Also, Fr Gobbi in an interview he gave in August 1999 stated that the world would end rather than be renewed at the Last Judgement-a view which is not found in the Catechism, in fact the exact opposite is stated in that heaven will come down to earth and the Most Holy Trinity will dwell with the redeemed in a transfigured Universe."

Gloria in Excelsis Deo!

...........

btw will put up a review on Amazon once I have finished reading the book, may take a few weeks.

Anonymous said...

The more I look at this, the more my head hurts.

I’m not trying to start an argument, so this is simply my thought on the subject: There are a great many contradictions between prophetic writings, and even some contradictions with logic. As a result, it becomes more and more difficult to reconcile the various prophecies.

But one thing keeps coming back to me. For the sake of argument, let’s just use the idea of 200 years between now and the end of the world. (Obviously, this is an arguable number. It’s just for the sake of discussion.)

To avoid the millenarianism trap, we must see that 200 years as being within history and within temporal reality (it cannot be outside of time or eternal).

Let us then remove the so called Eucharistic reign of Christ from discussion (or the millennial reign of Christ, or any other similar notion).

Assuming that things get better – significantly – and we live in a time of orthodox Catholic growth, the decline and elimination of secularism and relativism, the dawn of the Great Monarch and the Angelic Pope, can we then see this potential “era of peace” as being the fulfillment of Fatima AND existing solely within history AND not falling into millenarianism?

It’s difficult to wrap your head around the idea that we need a Great Monarch and/or an Angelic Pope if the world is going to end before they can really do anything of substance.

Mark

Anonymous said...

Eucharistic reign of Christ has been there from the Pentecost - and that is the view of Catholic Church, reflected in the CCC ( numerous articles - I've already psoted them on the other thread).
This view which is called amillennialism was introduced by St.Augustine and still stands as a doctrine of Catholic Church.

If one is following the Catholic teachings, one can not accommodated any "era of peace" anywhere before the Last Judgement, as it is not prophecied neither by Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels - nowhere does he ever mention that there is going to be "era of peace" BEFORE the Second Coming, quite the opposite - the Church will be persecuted and suffer. All of this is also in the CCC.
The speculations about the era of peace are actually the part of the mitigated millennnarias and is a heresy.
Fatime prophecies are CONDITIONAL and are not described as universal well-being. The other part is that the second secret was not revealed immediately, but after more than 20 years, it is revealed through the seer, so those are not direct words and as such might have been confused.

and where does the idea of Angelic Pope come from - every day some more confusion.

anon11

benjoyce said...

thank you- the only "theology" I had was at Boston College '80 where I had liberation theology from a protestant minister (Harvard school of theology Ph.d) and D. Bonhoeffer/Teirhard D. Chardin course from a Jesuit.

In 12 years of "CCD" grades 1-12, where neither C stood for Catholic they never mentioned the Rosary and the Bl Virgin Mary was out of the picture post '66.....OMG

I reverted back to being Catholic after looking a a newspaper of Marian apparitions. "Queen of Peace" printed in '91. (Petrisko) It had a huge array of alleged Marian apparitions which hit me like a brick. That's why I'm biased towards private revelation and I get bummed when others rank on these alleged Marian phenomenon.

Be careful on critizing these phenomenon. They have produced millions of converts.

Emmett O'Regan said...

Jamey,

I'm sure you're finding this difficult to teach - it can be a scary thing for kids, and needs to be approached carefully. But all eschatology is centred in the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Our Lord. Everyone who has ever lived has faced the Cross at some point, and at some point in the future, we will all face the Cross at the same time. But just like Our Lord, we will be victorious over death, and the world will be transformed:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
(Rev 21:1-6)

This world will be restored to its original perfection forever, but only through embracing the Cross of Christ.

Emmett O'Regan said...

Mark,

It is quite difficult piecing everything together, isn't it? The era of peace mentioned by Our Lady of Fatima should be equated with the "great peace" spoken of Our Lady of La Salette, which doesn't last a long time. We know it will be considerably shorter than 200 years, because the very people who inaugurate this era - the Two Witnesses (or the Angelic Pope/Great Monarch of private revelation), are killed by the Antichrist. Someone else mentioned 25 years - this is a far more realistic expectation, in keeping with what can be accomplished within the course of a normal human life span. All the prophecies of the Angelic Pope by Catholic saints and beati place the "renovatio mundi" accomplished by the pastor angelicus directly before the coming of the Antichrist. This should be equated with the period of conversion (e.g. that of the Jews) which must take place before the Second Coming of Christ can happen:

"The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",571 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".
(CCC 674)

It's best to think of the work of the Two Witnesses (which is exactly the same as that proposed for the Angelic Pope/Great Monarch in private revelation) is to prepare the Bride to meet the Groom. As soon as the Bride is ready to meet the Groom by adorning itself in pure linen (Rev 19:7-8), (which will take place through the eschatological outpouring of the Holy Spirit) then the Bridegroom will come, and bring to nothing the appearance of the Antichrist by completely destroying his domain. It is the work of the Spirit and the preparation of the Bride that beckons Christ to come:

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price."
(Rev 22:17)

benjoyce said...

Mary

from www.locutions.org

feb 11, 2011

(This pope is Francis via other locutions)

"Mary
A moment will come when I will take my beloved son, the Pope. I will walk with him to Jerusalem. For the second time I will go to Jerusalem to witness the death of a son.

When this happens the eyes of the Jewish people will see for the first time. They will see in the Pope’s death what the Catholic Church has done for them. There will be no mistake about which Church has blessed them, because it will have been done by the head of the Church and by the greatest of sacrifices. Israel will embrace the Catholic Church."

Does this Jive?

Bernadette said...

I have really enjoyed most of your blogs Emmitt, but this one and the previous two which relate to this topic of a new era of peace, are very disturbing to me. It seems to me that a "mountain has been made of a molehill" here, and there is a good deal of intellectualism clouding the spiritual aspects of Fr. Ianuzzi's writings.

(Quotes from your blog "The Millenium in Catholic Tradition")

RE: "For Catholics, Christ is already the King who reigns from heaven forever, and has done since the Incarnation - we do not need to wait until some point in the future for His millennial reign from heaven."

Fr. Iannuzzi's book does not portray the era of peace as a 'utopia' as indicated in the commentary in the blog (though it will certainly seem so after what we are dealing with now). He also does not deny that Jesus is still present in the Eucharist as a continuation of His presence on earth from Incarnation through His Asenscion into Heaven. The words in this blog are a great distortion of what Fr. Ianuzzi posits. That 'new era' is a time when, after having survived the greatest trials of humankind which are imminent, in fact have already begun, as when the "birth pangs" begin, there is a gradual increase of difficulty. Things will become much worse before Our Lady's Triumph is accomplished.

RE: "As noted recently by a Protestant Scholar......." (Seriously??)....“There is no biblical evidence that the nations as a whole will become Christianized. In fact, just the opposite appears to be the case. After all, we read the great lament of our Lord. “When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Luke 18:8). Indeed the Bible teaches that Christ will judge the nations when he returns because of their unbelief and hostility toward his kingdom (Matt. 25:31-32; Rev. 19:15; 20:11-12)."

When the smoke clears after all the suffering, there will be a much reduced population and the remaining people who are alive will be happy to live completely in God's Will; remembering what they have just endured; realizing the reality of a living God, which most people at present do not believe, even most Catholics who are 'cultural catholics' only. I have experienced this immense desire to do God's Will, after converting from atheism to Catholicism. After once not believing in His existence, then coming to know the Truth, I can truly understand how people at that time, will finally know the truth and will want desperately to change. Fr. Ianuzzi is not saying that we/they will be 'free from sin' at that time. We/they will gratefully decide to do God's Will because of the great purification. Unfortunately, toward the end of that time of rest allowed by God, many people will have forgotten as they have always done in the past, and will begin to take up sinful ways which, once again, will be used by satan when he is unleashed, at the end before Jesus comes in glory as he left the first time, the second and final physical coming of Jesus (at that time 'Will He find faith on earth?" for it will have fallen away again) It will be a gradual turning away from the faith, as humans always do, and we/they will be tested for the last time with the unleashing of satan.

Bernadette said...

The heresy of millenarianism says that Jesus will walk about the earth with the people, and whatever happens while He is here and interacting with the people determines the type of millenarianism named. Fr. Ianuzzi does not claim that Jesus will be walking on the earth. We already have the Eucharist, Who is Jesus here, not walking about but reposing in a Tabernacle. There will be nothing different except that Jesus will communicate with the people in a more powerful way, because the blindness of His True Presence which we experience here now will be lifted, due to the purification which those left on earth will have endured. I think that arrogance can get in the way of Truth, just as protestantism denies the True Presence in the Eucharist, and considers Catholics as idolators of bread.

7 days = world created in 6 days followed by the 7th day of rest.

The first 4000 years of God the Father = Israel
The following 2000 years of Jesus Christ = the new Israel, the Catholic Church
The final 1000 years of the Holy Spirit = the new era of peace (rest) after the second pentecost
Then comes the end of the world as we know it.

RE: "The strength of this book lies in the author’s evident desire for the imminent ‘era of peace’...."

Isn't this a rather arrogant assumption? How would one know that this is Fr. Ianuzzi's desire since he did not say that?

The greatest error (of many) in this blog topic, is the one which says it is not possible for God to do as He wishes and to have that time of true peace on earth, which Jesus always prayed for, and in the prayer He gave us - "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven" before He comes again in Glory. When we limit God, we insult Him, because God's ways are not our ways, and our ways are not God's ways. I guess we will all know the truth in the near future!

Rachmaninov said...

Bernadette,
the facts are that Fr Iannuzzi has given new meanings to already defined teachings of the Church.There is no justification for saying there are two instances of the Judgment. In Heralds of the Second Coming, I show how Scriptural passages Fr uses to prove his theory are used by the papal magisterium to describe the Final Judgment. A Simple question would be: Who is correct as to when the Antichrist comes is it Fr Iannuzzi who places him before a temporal Kingdom, or is it the Popes and the Cathechism which state very clearly that he comes immediately before the end of the world? Its really that simple who does the Holy Spirit use to give the authentic teaching?

Rachmaninov said...

Joachim of Fiore was condemned for his reign of the Holy Spirit idea the so called third age

Bernadette said...

23 The Catechism emphasizes the exposition of doctrine. It seeks to help deepen understanding of faith. In this way it is oriented towards the maturing of that faith, its putting down roots in personal life, and its shining forth in personal conduct.17

24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many people have experienced a 'mini-judgement' or 'illumination of conscience' prior to the final judgement which will occur at the final coming of Jesus. There will not be two final judgements, but an intermediate warning for preparation. I had that experience when I was given the gift of faith, which I was not asking for nor seeking. I was happy in my atheism. Unbidden was this sudden infused knowledge of the reality of God, through His Blessed Mother. I immediately knew that God existed and knew what my sins were which hurt Him, and sought confession a/s/a/p. It was Jesus' Divine Mercy.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a wonderful gift. It gives us an outline of what the Church teaches and what we, as Catholics, must believe. It could not be large enough to contain all of the extra gifts and blessings which the Lord provides for His children. He is doing many extraordinary things in order to save as many souls as possible. Many of these things have been given to His children through private revelations. One of these great gifts of Mercy is the 'illumination of conscience' which will occur all over the world at the same time. Each soul will know how he or she has offended Our Lord. This is a preparation and merciful gift so that we will all be able to change, correct the condition of our souls, and allow as many people as possible to finally know the truth of sin, since most priests and bishops do not discuss this topic any longer. If the Lord was to come now, so few souls would be able to get to Heaven - there is such a distortion of truth now, very few people even know what sin is and are living terrible lives. I would prefer to believe that God, the Holy Trinity, would provide a preparation for that time rather than to allow so many to lose their souls to hell eternally. If that additional information does not fit into that wonderful book, then it is not in there, but it is in separate books. A great example below:

Divine Mercy in my soul: Diary of St. Faustina - Church approved apparitions - A Feast Day was instituted by our Church - Divine Mercy Sunday

Bernadette said...

Jesus told Saint Faustina that the final age of the world was approaching. The message he was now giving to the world through her was specifically intended to prepare mankind for the end of the world. "Before I come as a just judge, I am coming FIRST as "King of Mercy"! Let all men now approach the throne of my mercy with absolute confidence! Some time before the the last days of final justice arrive, there will be given to mankind a great sign in the heavens of this sort: all the light of the heavens will be totally extinguished. There will be a great darkness over the whole earth. Then a great sign of the cross will appear in the sky. From the openings from where the hands and feet of the savior were nailed will come forth great lights - which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will happen before the very final days. It is the sign for the end of the world. After it will come the days of justice! Let souls have recourse to the fount of my mercy while there is still time! Woe to him who does not recognize the time of my visitation."

This information is not in the Catechism. But it is valid. Since there is no specific time frame mentioned, it could be "a period" of ten years, 100 years, 200 years, 500 years, 1,000 years. The era of peace is not necessarily 1000 years because Scripture says 1000 = 1 day. We don't know the exact time.

Even Emmitt's blog of May 23, 2012 quotes as follows:

"Fr Frank Klauder forwards an interesting possible interpretation of the March of 200 days, which also gives a date relating to the turn of the millennium. I will quote the relevant material below:

1. The four hundred "days" refer to four hundred months, or thirty-three-and-a-third years;

2. The two hundred "days" refer to sixteen and a half years;

............(fast forward to)........

7. The splendid era of peace, with which "the first prophecy" ends refers to the era of peace promised by Our Lady at Fatima, and which is being gradually prepared by the papal initiatives for the third millennium."

http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2012/05/st-john-boscos-prophecy-of-turn-of.html

Does anyone really feel like the 'new springtime' has actually occurred yet? Does it not fit the description of a time of peace and strong faith? Everything is currently spiralling downward, not improving since Pope John Paul II spoke those words at the turn of the millenium. We have not experienced that period of peace OLOF spoke of!

Rachmaninov said...

Bernadette,
I have quotes of JP II in Heralds of the Second Coming which shows it refers to the new heaven and new earth post second coming-in exactly the same way Our Lady told Fr Gobbi

Anonymous said...

"Does this Jive?"

No.

In order to "feel jive" one has to believe in those locutions.

Did it ever occur to you, Ben ( and others infatuated by prophecies) that those might be wrong and you are following the wrong path?

Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray

anon11

benjoyce said...

anon 11

These locutions come from a directee of Mons. Esseff who is the spiritual director of mother Teresa's order for the last 30 years.

did it ever occur to you that Mother Teresa of Calcutta would get it right with having the correct spiritual director?

apparently you know better than Mons. Esseff and Mother Teresa. You think your smart in attempting to stifle the Holy Spirit?

Anonymous said...

Apparently I am simply following the direct words of the Scripture.

I do not follow PRIVATE locutions/apparitions/prophecies.

And I am not obliged to by Catholic Faith.

Better be safe than sorry.

anon11

Anonymous said...

2 Benjoyce

I am NOT making any analogies here, just illustrating the possibility:

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html

anon11

Anonymous said...

For those who are apparently overwhelmed by mystics/seers/locutions and prophecies:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/MYSTICS.TXT

http://www.catholicdoors.com/courses/discern.htm

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6602

those are VERY good articles with perfect examples of the common error of taking private revelations as benjoyce attributes ALL of them without discernment to Holy Spirit ( SIC!!!)

The new Catechism at #67 says: "Throughout the ages, there have been so-called 'private' revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to 'improve' or 'complete' Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history .

anon11

Bernadette said...

Anon 11 - exactly! "It is not their role to 'improve' or 'complete' Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history "

No one claims that messages from Heaven improve or complete Christ's Revelation.

This explanation you quoted from the Catechism is why Jesus and Mary are speaking and appearing to people in 'this time in history'. The world and Church are in such terrible condition. Jesus and Mary are trying to rescue their children from the false teachings that are rampant, and the dire lack of shepherding from the Church. This is a great gift and people who discourage this are doing damage to people who become afraid to hear the messages for fear of somehow going against the Church.

Anonymous said...

"No one claims that messages from Heaven improve or complete Christ's Revelation."

THOSE are NOT messages from Heaven.

NOBODY knows for sure where do they come from.

And nobody is obliged to believe them.

They do not have any value for a Catholic.
I can understand that you might have a personal reverence to something which brought you to the Faith, but is time to move past that, since even if something produces good fruits it is not always from Good anyway - deceit is always used to lure people.

read the articles I've provided, please

anon11

Anonymous said...

They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith

- THIS is the MAIN PART, not what you cherry pick, because you like it.

Catholic Faith is NOT about locutions/prophecies/apparitios

even if those were the ones which pushed you to convert

anon11

benjoyce said...

you never leave the deposit of faith
and don't let private revelation do that to you.

The vast majority of times that people don't believe in PR is that they are afraid of looking stupid (ie pride) If you know the beliefs of the Church don't leave it.

Are there great numbers of people who have left the Church due to PR?

there are very few. And those PR's that are blocked end up blocking God's grace and those graces go to waste.

benjoyce said...

YOU GUYS WILL LIKE THIS ONE FROM FR. IANNUZZI

http://www.tlig.org/en/news/2012-10-14/2187/



Why are these messages important? Because the one public revelation that Christ preached to his apostles and that his apostles transmitted to us (kerygma ton apostolon) is continually being explicated by the Holy Spirit that Christ promised to send us so that we may come to the knowledge of “all the truth”. Before departing from this world Jesus told his disciples: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will teach you all the truth” (Jn. 16:12). Among these “things” Jesus did not tell his disciples are the teachings of the TLIG messages, which the Holy Spirit of truth continues to explicate to Vassula. Although such TLIG messages on unity, love, mercy, intimacy with the Trinity and a holy fear of God are implied in Scripture, they are explicated in Vassula’s messages.

......

Church documents of the past 2,000 years further testify to the continuing, ongoing disclosure of public revelation, as such documents never affirm God’s revelation has “ended” with Christ, but rather that Christ’s public revelation is “constituted”. In point of fact, the term constituted doesn’t signify “end” at all, but instead it means that the foundation of revelation is established in Christ once and for all. While private revelation can never match Sacred Scripture, for Sacred Scripture is forever the irreplaceable and inerrant foundation of our faith, private revelation assists Scripture and even Tradition in their role of continuously explicating “over the course of the centuries” and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, God’s revealed truths. Now, the work of the Spirit’s explication of revelation occurs through the official teaching voice of the Church (Magisterium) and through the office of prophet (e.g., Vassula, through whom the Church today receives private revelations) whom St. Paul lists immediately after the office of apostle: “God has appointed in his Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, fourth miracles…” (1 Cor. 12:28)................................

These are but few of the many examples that tell us why the Church’s private revelations – when they are well respected by scores of theologians and bishops, like those of Vassula – are of such tremendous value today, which constitute the continuing and ongoing unfolding of Christ’s public revelation. Their importance is further witnessed in the spiritually devastating consequences that would have ensued if the Church had ignored them: Had the Church ignored the private revelations of St. Margaret Mary, we would not have Christ’s assurance that we may peacefully die in the state of grace with the grace of final repentance (cf. 12th promise of the 1st Friday Devotions); had the Church ignored the private revelations of St. Faustina, we would not have the Feast of Divine Mercy that grants a total remission of all sin and punishment; had the Church ignored the private revelations of the Servant of God Luisa Piccarreta, we would not have the new mystical gift to the “Living in the Divine Will”.

Given the foregoing, one can readily see that the True Life in God messages are part and parcel of the Church’s scriptural teachings and traditions. They are messages not meant for a thousand years ago, but for today! The way God spoke through his apostles and through his prophets, is now being spoken through the messages of Vassula. Let us thank God the Father for these revelations of his Son Jesus Christ through his secretary of True Life in God, Vassula Ryden, who writes under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and let us receive them with spirit of docility to the Spirit of truth who is speaking to his Church today. May God bless you.

Rev. J. L. Iannuzzi

benjoyce said...

Fr. Iannuzzi got his vocation in Medjugoje. His wrestling team was traveling in the Bosnia area and Joe decided to go to Medjugorje to see for himself.

There, the BVM told him THREE times that he should become a priest. So he did.

Due to Private Revelation we now have this fine priest who appears to defend private revelation

Jamey said...

I converted to Christianity largely because of Howard Storm's nde and Rudolf Steiner's spiritual visions of Christ's crucifixion. However I am now faced that they could well be diabolical of origin especially Steiner. How can a false apparition or vision bring someone to the faith - I simply don't know but I think Augustine said God brings the best out of less than perfect circumstances. Also I think this is one of those rare mysteries we will not completely understand until we are on the other side.

I appreciate Fr Calloway - he converted due to Medjugorje but in a speech he said "the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje". Too many who believe in Medjugorje seem shaken to the core when someone challenges it.

One massive issue is people speak of many visionaries/apparitions as though they are a foregone conclusion and true. Furthermore every message one of the modern visionaries has is assumed to be true and from Heaven, there is little testing of the spirits behind them. Even the greatest saints found it hard to tell the difference good and bad angels at times.

- So the Gospa will be at Medj for 3 days.
- She alluded we should pray straight to Jesus instead of her intercession.
- The eventual "saint" priest ends up being a sex pest.
- A nice angel appears and turns into the devil.

So which parts of that apparition are true and who decides on this?

These people are in over their heads.

Apart from the early scandals, general disobedience two bishops have condemned it so to be wary is sensible at the very least.

Also accusing anon11 of pride is somewhat unfair - St John of Cross himself says to assume something is of the devil unless proven otherwise - this from arguably the greatest doctor and authority of mystical theology. Anon11 is simply being prudent and protecting him/herself as we are in a battle against principalities and powers who are cunning and highly intelligent.

From what I gather anon11 also believes in the eternal magisterium of the Church - where it is held there is God, his angels and Heaven. So accusing him of the type of Satanic pride that atheists are most guilty of for not believing does not follow.

Also a ? - did Mother Teresa choose Mgr Esseff as her advisor or was he assigned to her. Remember her other advisor is now serving time for touching boys.

http://www.examiner.com/article/spiritual-advisor-to-mother-teresa-gets-25-year-sentence-for-sex-crimes

Jamey said...

IMO these apparitions that all link up to one another are a great diversion from the change to the Novus Ordo Missae of Paul VI. Medjugorje begins in 1980 at the time when the abandonment of the TLM is really being felt. Everyone focuses on what is going on with Medjugorje, are waiting for an imminent chastisement and over time the link between the apostasy and the new Mass are clouded. The liturgy being impoverished leads to people reaching out for other forms of "mysticism", that of dodgy apparitions or veering to new age practices.

Pope Pius XII as Cardinal Pacelli warned of the suicide of altering the faith in its liturgy, a Fatima warning. This has come to pass. Where have we heard this at Medjugorje? It is the quintessential Novus Ordo apparition.

mum6kids said...

On private revelation; The Church in her wisdom has set up a system for discernment which usually works pretty well.
I think the reason it seems to have worked less well over the last 40 to 50 years is that there has been a massive dip in the laity's trust of bishops.
The whole Medj thing would not have reached such worrying proportions if people had felt able to trust the bishop in the first place.
Perhaps Pope Francis will begin to mend those wounds.
As a Brit I am particularly aware of the mistrust of bishops problem, we had no one to send to the conclave because of the behaviour of the only eligable Cardinal and the fact he was the only one is because we have a famine of good men. it's sad - but we must pray.

On the gold rosary: I haven't seen it. My friend put it away and never returned to Medj. The "miracle" disturbed him very much. He said "I just can't see Our Blessed Mother being so brash."
He's a good man. Ive known him over 30 years (since we were teenagers) and I trust his word.

I do have a bit of sympathy with anon11 but I think you are throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
The Church has approved Lourdes, and many have been healed (read R H Benson's book "Lourdes" it's very good) Fatima, La Salette, etc.

Ignoring all apparitions strikes me as a bad idea. If people had responded to Fatima the Second World War and Russia's error might not have happened.
If the people of Rwanda had responded to Our Lady of Kibeho maybe the bloodbath would not have happened.
If we had responded to Our Lady of Akita maybe we would have better bishops.

All we can do is pray for discernment, listen to the Church and obey the one commandment Our Lady gave in Scripture, "Do whatever He tells you."

Shell

Jamey said...

"I do have a bit of sympathy with anon11 but I think you are throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
The Church has approved Lourdes, and many have been healed (read R H Benson's book "Lourdes" it's very good) Fatima, La Salette, etc."

Do concur with this. My defense of anon11 is in regard to the unapproved current locutions/apparitions.

Mum6kids regarding your other comment sadly the dearth of good men has come about largely due to the wrong people in charge of seminaries. Our local seminary is heretical - one must hide their like of Latin and the old Mass. My parish priest advises young men to stay away from there as it will damage their faith.

In Goodbye Good Men Michael Rose highlights poor seminary leaders who turn away orthodox young men after a filtering process and then cry out that not enough are seeking vocations so we must open up to married priests for example whilst they also secretly envision female ordinations to the priesthood. So the situation has been largely self created. Sitting above these seminaries are apostate bishops.

.................

Feeling great hope with Pope Francis atm, loved his comments about the global cult of money and its comparison to the golden calf.

Anonymous said...

I do have a bit of sympathy with anon11 but I think you are throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater.
The Church has approved Lourdes, and many have been healed (read R H Benson's book "Lourdes" it's very good) Fatima, La Salette, etc.



I think you are fantacizing. Nowhere here was Lourdes mentioned and Lourdes does not have anything to do with the prophecies of temporal kingdom/era of peace AND all other millennarian parafernalia. People here are mostly carzy about unapproved apparitions/locutions/visions - and THOSE have been attributed to the Holy Spirit by Benjoyce.
By the Church magisterium one does not have to believe even in approved apparitions, so this rule by itself tells you how little value doesn the Church place on the apparitions and there is a very valid reason for that - read the links I've provided, and you will understand.

The other thing is - before making conclusions such as "If the people of Rwanda had responded to Our Lady of Kibeho maybe the bloodbath would not have happened.
If we had responded to Our Lady of Akita maybe we would have better bishops." it is advisable to learn the history of th approval of Fatima and when and how the secrets have been revealed. If the second secret was revealed in 1941 there was no way WWII could have been prevented.

Moving hastingly in any appartition will cause more harm than good - the history of the Church knows that all too well - read the story of Sr. Magdalena ofthe Cross - and that is just one.
If we, as Cathoics, beleive that th Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then we have to obey it's pace and ruling and not become protestant-like beleivers, where we pick and choose what suits us.

Our Lord Jesus Christ and our Church places obedience to the church as a very importan discernment factor.
Most of the visions/locutions and so on lack obedience in he first place.
So do the worshippers of those.

anon11

mum6kids said...

Anon11
I am not fantasising about anything thank you. You don't need to attack me.
I mentioned Lourdes as an example of "approved" Marian apparition that's all.
You have given me the impression you reject all apparitions/visions/ etc whether approved or not. I was merely pointing out that the Church has approved some and that their messages were important, such a Kibeho.
If you only reject apparations approved or not approved based on eschatological messages - well, fine. That's up to you.

I accept the approved ones - the Church allows and in some cases encourages this. My choice.

I have sympathy with your suspicion over many reported apparations but the example you gave is ONE and she has been found out.

I am not well enough to bother discussions with people who attack sorry.

Jamey said...

Misunderstandings are very easy over the keyboard.

Shell, I hope you feel better soon and God Bless I have appreciated your input.

Anonymous said...

mum6kids

I do not even look into unapproved pparitions.

Lourdes is not a prophetic apparition, so I simply do not understand why did you mention it.

even approved apparitions are LESS important than the Magisterium teachings of the Church - one is free of sin if one does not follow them or believe them.
That does show how the Church is approaching even the ones which are approved - as the least important to an individual faith.
I never mentioned my own take on approved apparitions, just how the Church is approaching them, because how I see them - does not matter, but how the Church sees them - does matter.

And contrary to the belief between the apparition worshippers, the Catholic Church has much more level-headed approach even to the ones which are approved.

If one wants to find the examples of false apparitions - the web is there, just google "false mystics", "false apparitions" - I gave the link to the one which is just very well known, but there are plenty of others. The blog design does not make it easy to bring the links, etc.

Which doesn't mean it is just ONE false appartion.

the aboundancy of falsehood in locutions and visions IS the reason the Church is approaching them with a lot of reserve.
And so should the obedient Catholics.


anon11

benjoyce said...

let's not forget the Church loosed / abrogated cannon law in 1966 which required an imprimatur for disemination. Why was this done? You do not need one now for constructive dissemination.

The Holy Spirit needs room to move and can't wait decades or 100+ years for approval.

according to www.locution.org Jesus says you need to listen to my voice now and I will tell you what to do. If you wait for the "events" it will be very very difficult to find your way.


therefor what will save you from the comming destruction is private revelation. don't ignore it.

from my website www.catholicprophecy.net

THIS IS IMPORTANT: Nov. 25th 2012 -Jesus states: "You must learn to hear my voice now. When the events come, I will speak to you and guide you. Before then, you must grow accustomed to my voice. Many would see this as extraordinary, but the events will be extraordinary and the helps that you will need must also be extraordinary."

Mary- " Another hour of darkness is coming upon the whole earth and there is only one place to survive, in my Immaculate Heart where God has stored up all my mystical favors. These favors are also for you. You will need them in the darkness and you must find them now. When the darkness comes, you will not be able to discover your way". Locutions.org March 21st 2012.

The Virgin Mary states in the Fr. Gobbi's book: #154m, June 3rd 1978 "Whoever does not enter into this refuge (her Immaculate Heart) will be carried away by the great tempest which has already begun to rage."

Locutions.org -Mary-Nov 22, 2012 "..... Even if you have only turned to me a few days before the events, even if it is just a very short time that you are on your new road, it will be enough. You will have found the right road before the events. When the events begin, it will be very, very difficult to choose the right road. Begin now."
Basicly, at some point in time, not having faith will be a death sentence. But hasn't -not having faith- always been a "death sentence"?

Jamey said...

Anon11 I think Shell would agree with much of what you say in your last post, she simply sees the approved public apparitions as having more significance than you see them. I think she would agree the explicit belief of approved apparitions is not necessary for salvation.

"according to www.locution.org Jesus says you need to listen to my voice now and I will tell you what to do. If you wait for the "events" it will be very very difficult to find your way."

If I understand correctly surely such a pronouncement would have to come from the top or at least approval of (from the Pope) especially one where we don't know the seer nor accompanied by a clear miracle? in fact that for me further hurts the cred of locutions.org. I know it is easier being a naysayer but that doesnt sound right for obvious reasons.

benjoyce said...

This action is exciting. It motivates me to pray more

Anonymous said...

Yes, Jamey, I can see that Shell is more or less on the same page.

My comments were mostly about worshippers of the apparitions/locutions/visions without discernment are they approved or not. This trend was mostly protestant before ( rupture stuff and millennialism) but it became an epidemic recently in-between Catholics, which is worrisome. People are more drawn to the the celebration of doom and gloom ( which is copied from one "prophecy" to the other) than to the actual words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, CCC or teachings of the Church.

And once somebody points that out, the clear animosity from the worshippers ensues.
It is not so visible here, on your blog ( though it is present), but it is very visible on the web.

anon11

Bernadette said...

TO: Anon 11

RE: "Did it ever occur to you, Ben ( and others infatuated by prophecies) that those might be wrong and you are following the wrong path?"

Did it ever occur to YOU, Anon 11, that they may be true and you are doing to Jesus exactly what the Pharisees and others did to Him? Denying Him again? I would rather err on the side of having been wrong and believed, than to ignore the entreaties of Jesus and Mary to save souls, and bring more pain to them at the loss of souls because of having blocked their work.

RE: "I never mentioned my own take on approved apparitions, just how the Church is approaching them, because how I see them - does not matter, but how the Church sees them - does matter."

How preposterous is it to declare that all people who listen to messages from Heaven (yes, from Heaven) are not paying attention to what the Church teaches. If the Church has not condemned them, as they are in the process of doing with Maria Divine Mercy - Praise God - then we are free to read message, hopefully to respond, or even visit the locations. This is a fact!

RE: Your comments - "apparition worshippers" and "not become protestant-like beleivers, where we pick and choose what suits us." and "Our Lord Jesus Christ and our Church places obedience to the church as a very importan discernment factor. Most of the visions/locutions and so on lack obedience in he first place. So do the worshippers of those."

How rude are all these proclamations of knowing what people think and do! No one 'worships' apparitions or those receiving messages, just as we don't worship the Blessed Mother and Saints. We listen to what they say, and pray as they have asked. No one is picking and choosing what to believe. We listen to Heaven's directions AND we are some of the most devout Catholics, who attend daily Mass, Adoration, pray before abortion mills, pray many rosaries alone or in prayer groups for cardinals, bishops, priests and all religious, for souls in purgatory, etc., and who are totally obedient to the Church and Magisterium. How dare you describe a large segment of good Catholics in your own distorted view of who we are? You don't know me or the many people that I know and you are completely wrong in your assessments. This is an insult to say the very least....

You advise us to "Google apparitions to find out the truth about them". Are you joking? There are so many lies and distortions out there, directed by satan himself. Do you suppose he wants these heavenly aids to continue? He is destroying everything around us, including the valid true Church Jesus established, and will also attack anything that God does for us in any way he can. Just as you can tell which Church is the true Church of Jesus by looking at how much it is attacked, so you can tell the most important apparitions/locutions by the amount of lies and distortions that are aimed at them.

Bernadette said...

RE:
"Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray"

These passages are urging people to use the gift of Discernment. It doesn't say that all prophets are false. You would have us believe that we should ignore prophecy. There were prophets throughout the Old Testament and quoted in the New Testament, warning people of the dangers that were ahead - why would God not use Prophecy in our time, which is a good deal more dangerous than ever before in history? There is the possibility of decimating entire countries in one stroke. I can't imagine God abandoning His children in such a way as you are proposing, nay, demanding. Somehow I cannot imagine Jesus saying, "No help from Heaven is available now folks, you are on your own, even though the smoke of satan has entered into the Church (per Paul VI) and there are wolves disguised as sheep within (eg, we have not been taught about hell, sin, from pulpits, etc., etc. - homosexual abuse of boys, teens, seminarians for decades-see Scotland for the most current example of how we have NOT been in the era of peace). Good luck to you all!"

Our Pope Francis, who is a great gift to the Church, as were JPII and BXVI, has just asked us to 'pray for pastors so they not become wolves', and speaking of how worldly many of them are! This after Benedict asked at the beginning of his pontificate to "pray that I do not flee for fear of the wolves". I guess we now know what the 'wolves' are. And this is not 'gloom and doom' - it is called reality.

To the scripture passages quoted above, I offer these:

1 Thessalonians 5: [19] Extinguish not the spirit. [20] Despise not prophecies. [21] But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Corinthians 12: [1] - Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. [4] There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; [5] there are different forms of service but the same Lord; [6] there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. [7] To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. [8] To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit; [9] to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit; [10] to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues. [11] But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.

RE: "And once somebody points that out, the clear animosity from the worshippers ensues. It is not so visible here, on your blog ( though it is present), but it is very visible on the web."

The only animosity I have noticed is from you Anon 11. You make wild accusations about what other people are thinking and doing, without knowing them or what they do. You may have run into a few people who are confused, as can be found in all 'groups' of people. Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Clarity and Discernment are good things to pray for.

Anonymous said...

Did it ever occur to YOU, Anon 11, that they may be true and you are doing to Jesus exactly what the Pharisees and others did to Him? Denying Him again?

No and it is NOT possible - not following and not believing the unapproved apparitions is being obedient to the Church and following them - is being disobedient - therefore sinning. So the pharisees are all the way across the table - on the worshipping end of the unapproved apparitions

anon11

Anonymous said...


How preposterous is it to declare that all people who listen to messages from Heaven (yes, from Heaven) are not paying attention to what the Church teaches. If the Church has not condemned them, as they are in the process of doing with Maria Divine Mercy - Praise God - then we are free to read message, hopefully to respond, or even visit the locations. This is a fact!


WOW, girl, you better go and talk to your spiritual adviser, because you are in a grave possibility of being of mortal sin against the First and Second Commandment.

MDM, Vassula and all others like them are condemned by Church and equating them with "messages from Heaven" is a blasphemy.

So is equating ANY locutions from unapproved source - this is BLASPHEMY - to call unknown source of vision a message from Heaven.

I think I am done with you, Bernadette. It is not spiritually healthy to engage in a discussion with a hysterical worshiper of the locutions/visions of potentially evil origin and your screaming tone is a proof of those messages NOT being from God.

Otherwise you would not be so distraught over an issue which at best is irrelevant to the Faith.


anon11

benjoyce said...

wow Bernedette! your smokin

perhaps your a lawyer

anonymous:
Vassula has not been condemned

one is free to believe in priv. rev. that has not been church approved
I repeat- those two cannon were abrogated in 1966 that require an imprematur for dissemination.

Anonymous said...


Vassula has not been condemned

she was.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

25th January 2007

Prot. N.: 54/92 – 24945

Your Eminence / Your Excellency,

Requests for clarification on the writings and activities of Mrs Vassula Ryden continue to arrive at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in particular regarding the validity of the Notification of 6th October 1995 and the criteria that should be followed in defining the provision of local Churches regarding the advisability of spreading the writings of Mrs Vassula Ryden.

At this regard, the Congregation wishes to specify as follows:

1) The Notification of 1995 remains valid concerning the doctrinal judgement on the writings examined (cf. attachment 1).

2) Following a the dialogue which has taken place with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Mrs Vassula Ryden has however provided clarifications on certain problematical points which appear in her writings, and also on the nature of her messages, which do not present themselves as divine revelations but, rather as personal meditations (cf. attachment 2: Letter of April 4th 2002 published in the True Life in God vol. 10). From the normative point of view, then, after the above mentioned clarifications, it is advisable to make a prudent evaluation, case by case, taking into account the concrete possibilities for the faithful in reading these writings within the framework of such clarifications.

3) Finally, it is reminded that the participation of Catholics in prayer groups organized by Mrs Vassula Ryden is not advisable. In the cases of ecumenical encounters, the faithful should comply with the provisions given by the Ecumenical Directory, the Code of Canon Law (can. 215; 223 §2, 383 §3) and the diocesan Ordinaries.

In sending you this information, I am sincerely yours in devotion to the Lord.



Cardinal William LEVADA

Prefect

To all the Presidents of the Bishops' Conferences

one is free to believe in private revelations if one is not afraid to 1) be disobedient to the Church in cases of clear condemnation, like with Vassula 2) engage in a dangerous game with a possibility to be exposed to the devil's tricks

anon11

Anonymous said...

this is the 1995 document:

The first official reaction of the Catholic Church came by means of the Notification of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the writings of Mrs. Vassula Ryden (October 6, 1995). Here is the complete text:

Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Many Bishops, priests, religious and lay people have sought an authoritative judgment from this Congregation on the activity of Mrs. Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox residing in Switzerland, who in speech and in writing is spreading in Catholic circles throughout the world messages attributed to alleged heavenly revelations.

A calm, attentive examination of the entire question, undertaken by this Congregation in order to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (cf. 1 Jn 4:1), has brought out -- in addition to positive aspects -- a number of basic elements that must be considered negative in the light of Catholic doctrine.

In addition to pointing out the suspect nature of the ways in which these alleged revelations have occurred, it is necessary to underscore several doctrinal errors they contain.

Among other things, ambiguous language is used in speaking of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to the point of confusing the specific names and functions of the Divine Persons. These alleged revelations predict an imminent period when the Antichrist will prevail in the Church. In millenarian style, it is prophesied that God is going to make a final glorious intervention which will initiate on earth, even before Christ’s definitive coming, an era of peace and universal prosperity. Furthermore, the proximate arrival is foretold of a Church which would be a kind of pan-Christian community, contrary to Catholic doctrine.

The fact that the aforementioned errors no longer appear in Ryden’s later writings is a sign that the alleged “heavenly messages” are merely the result of private meditations.

Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.

Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden’s activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden’s writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.

Bernadette said...

Anon 11

Unfortunately, you have distorted what I have said.

RE: "WOW, girl, you better go and talk to your spiritual adviser, because you are in a grave possibility of being of mortal sin against the First and Second Commandment."

You can't possibly be serious. I will repeat - Holy Mother Church has said that we are free to believe an unapproved apparition/locution until it is officially condemned - it is merely in a sort of limbo until a final judgement is made by the proper authorities. The Church is very slow in deciding and as long as there is nothing found to be against matters of faith and morals, we are free to believe as we wish, with much discernment, of course.

From 'Normae Congregationis' (a 1978 document written by the Vatican's Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (SCDF) concerning guidelines for Catholic bishops in discerning claims to private revelation such as apparitions):
When a bishop is informed of an alleged apparition, he is to ascertain the facts promptly. If there is no apparent problem, HE MAY PROVISIONALLY PERMIT DEVOTION inspired by the events while investigation continues.
After a thorough investigation, he may issue a verdict in one of the three following formulas:
1 constat de supernaturalitate: the event is confirmed to be of supernatural origin
2 constat de non supernaturalitate: the event is confirmed to be of non-supernatural origin (= condemned)
3 non constat de supernaturalitate: the event is not confirmed to be of supernatural origin

What does listening to messages have to do with Loving God and putting Him in first place or putting false idols before Him? I already stated that I do not worship anyone but God. He comes first in all things. I have completely submitted to His Will in all things. How am I in mortal sin? This is a rather extreme statement since you know nothing about me.

RE: "MDM, Vassula and all others like them are condemned by Church and equating them with "messages from Heaven" is a blasphemy."

I said in my original comments that I was praising God for having shown MDM as invalid, because I never thought she was valid. I am happy if the Church uncovers errors like hers. She definitely said some strange things. I also have not read Vassula's messages, although I do know that she went to Pope Benedict, who first asked her to speak to Cardinal Bertoni and his secretary. They asked her some questions and her responses were accepted as having explained misunderstandings. She subsequently was allowed to meet with the Pope. Since that 1975 letter you posted, there has been an addendum. Why you are connecting me with those two individuals, I don't understand as I never mentioned either one.

Bernadette said...

RE: "So is equating ANY locutions from unapproved source - this is BLASPHEMY - to call unknown source of vision a message from Heaven."

Again, the Church states that we are allowed to be involved with as yet unapproved apparitions/locutions unless they are subsequently condemned. I use discernment and prudence when hearing messages. I don't listen to all of them, but a select few.

RE: "I think I am done with you, Bernadette. It is not spiritually healthy to engage in a discussion with a hysterical worshiper of the locutions/visions of potentially evil origin and your screaming tone is a proof of those messages NOT being from God. Otherwise you would not be so distraught over an issue which at best is irrelevant to the Faith."

I am neither hysterical nor distraught. I don't know where you got the impression that I am screaming - Perhaps you heard a locution of me screaming? No such thing is occurring, as I am quite calm. I do not worship anyone but my Lord and God. Again, you are making all sorts of assumptions that have no validity, and to boot, you are judging me calling me blasphemous and in mortal sin! I think that we have uncovered who is hysterical and distraught.

I am sorry that you are so upset. I just needed to address your comments which generalize about people, and try to identify and apply your own perceptions of their motives, which are based on assumptions, not facts. And in your response, you have proven me to be correct.

benjoyce said...

annonymous: If Vassula has been condemned Fr. Iannuzzi would not endorse her ministry.

I'm sure there has been more recent alterations and clarifications of her status.

It's good to have Fr. Iannuzzi around to take care of these things.

Anonymous said...

annonymous: If Vassula has been condemned Fr. Iannuzzi would not endorse her ministry.


It is a faulty argument.

One has to consider Fr.Ianuzzi semi-divine to make his endorsement above the condemnation of the CDF.

Since Fr. Ianuzzi is endorsing heresy of millennialiasm as well, his endorsement of Vassula is not surprising.

anan11

Anonymous said...

Bernadette, since you did not understand by the first time I will repeat my post:


WOW, girl, you better go and talk to your spiritual adviser, because you are in a grave possibility of being of mortal sin against the First and Second Commandment.

MDM, Vassula and all others like them are condemned by Church and equating them with "messages from Heaven" is a blasphemy.

So is equating ANY locutions from unapproved source - this is BLASPHEMY - to call unknown source of vision a message from Heaven.

I think I am done with you, Bernadette. It is not spiritually healthy to engage in a discussion with a hysterical worshiper of the locutions/visions of potentially evil origin and your screaming tone is a proof of those messages NOT being from God.

Otherwise you would not be so distraught over an issue which at best is irrelevant to the Faith.

anon11

Rachmaninov said...

I have posted an article about the conversion of the Jews at the end of time. Here. Please do have a look!
God Bless
Stephen
http://divinemercypopes.com/?page_id=15

Bernadette said...

Thank you BenJoyce for that wonderful article written by Fr. Iannuzzi with regard to Vassula. I had not heard her messages before, but I think Fr. Iannuzzi presents an excellent case for the words she relays from Jesus, and Fr's explanation of how Jesus stated He could not explain everything to the Apostles, but later on more information would be forthcoming through the Holy Spirit, ie, "although Christ gave us everything we need for salvation and holiness, not everything is fully understood or fully “explicated” ".

benjoyce said...

Question: I'm trying to decipher the position of Rachmaninov and Emmet AND also seek Fr. Iannuzzi's understanding. I'm just seeking the truth.

Q. Emmett and Rachmaninov say that the 2nd Pentecost happens just before the Antichrist AND that the "utopia" or "2nd terrestrial paradise" happens AFTER the antichrist

BUT MMP (Gobbi), the BVM states
#357t "The Holy Spirit will come down as fire, but in a manner different from his first coming: it will be a fire which will burn and transform everything, which will sanctify and renew the earth from its foundations.".......

"renew the earth" doesn't this mean terrestrial paradise?

the phrase "second coming" is not stated but it is most heavily implied that it is the second coming. (BVM says "first coming")

??

I'll work on this some more

Anonymous said...


Q. Emmett and Rachmaninov say that the 2nd Pentecost happens just before the Antichrist AND that the "utopia" or "2nd terrestrial paradise" happens AFTER the antichrist

WHAT? Where do THEY state THAT?

they BOTH exactly oppose that as proclaiming the Second Pentecost BEFORE the time of Antichrist is a mitigated millennarianism.
Second Pentecost can happen only AFTER the time of Antichrist and tribulation and AFTER the Last Judgement.

anon11

benjoyce said...

here it is:

" Emmett O'Regan said...
Thanks Anon!

"benjoyce - I believe that the "era of peace" promised by Our Lady of Fatima corresponds to the Second Pentecost, and the conversion of the Jews etc. which must take place before the Second Coming of Christ. I don't think this period will last very long at all.."

Rachmaninov said...

My view is that the Holy Spirit will work to convert the Jews as a nation-and convert people of good will and those destined for eternal life in the mix of events leading up to the Last Judgment. If the idea of these supernatural warnings to be given is correct, then I think maybe that is the way to understand how it happens. However as John Paul II stated there would be no substantial changes to individuals or humanity as a whole until the end of time, then we have to say that talk of renewing the earth,transforming into a new Eden can only refer to after the last Judgment as anon 11 said.
One quote I didnt put in the book that I really should have done was this which backs up the position of Emmett and myself "With the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus and the Motu Proprio Decessores nostri , the Holy See sought to renew and strengthen this body, to give a new shape and thus bring attention to the pastoral solicitude of the Successor of Peter to those Churches which, on the Continent of hope, full of faith walk towards the "new heavens and new earth" mentioned in the Bible, ( Isaiah 65, 17, cf. 2 Peter 3, 13, Rev 21:1) and that all of us seem to glimpse in the third millennium of Christianity which is now close". Pope John Paul II TO THE PLENARY SESSION I THE PAPAL COMMISSION FOR LATIN AMERICA Thursday December 7, 1989

Anonymous said...

Well, Emmett might answer for himself, Stephen already did.

On a general note, though - you guys make me chuckle sometimes.
You, BenJoyce, YOURSELF told us that you have converted because of some event in your life, so did Bernadette and there are many others.

It has been happening for 2000 years - people are converting all the time, not everybody is born and raised and stays in Faith from cradle to grave.

So what is so special with the Jews? do they have different chromosomes? or three eyes? or deficiency in the world perception?

Why do THEY have to have a different mode of conversion? Individuals do convert on a everyday basis already.

As a mass ANY NATION will convert ONLY because of the hardships and problems - be it wars, tribulations, chastisements, Antichrist reign.
O, about Antichrist. His reign is supposed to last 3 or 7 years - correct me, because I do not remember the figure. And his reign IS going to be BAD for humanity - so why do you think there should be some other period for conversion of anybody?
During those tribulations not only Jews will convert, but all others as well - this is the very nature of humanity, reflected in the proverbs of many nations - when problems arises - the Faith thrives - that is widely known phenomena.

that is why, probably, the humanity is going to be given that last chance for conversion - and THAT is Out Lord's Largest Mercy - humankind will have time to understand and repent. And only THEN, when the chance has been given will the Great Sign of Second Coming happen and the resurrection of the dead occur and the Last Judgement follow.

This all is also in prophecies given to S.Faustina.

I really do not understand what is so confusing and special about conversion of the Jews and it's time frame

anon 11




Emmett O'Regan said...

Both Scripture and the Catechism teach us that there will be a renewal of the faith just before the Second Coming of Christ. Indeed, the Second Coming can't take place until the conversion of the Jews. When the "fullness of the gentiles" are brought in and the conversion of the Jews take place during the ministry of the Two Witnesses. The Bride will then be ready to meet the Groom during this New Springtime for the Church, who will not delay His Coming any longer. As soon as we see the first buds of the New Springtime, we will know that the Second Coming of Christ will be immediately at hand - not a thousand years later (which is millenarianism):

“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates."
(Matt 24:32-33)

The Catechism places this period of conversion just before the final persecution of the Church under the Antichrist:

"The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old." St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles", will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".

The Jews have always played a central part in the history of salvation - a role which St. Paul tells us would be continued right up until the end of the world. I would equate this period with the Second Pentecost, or the eschatological Outpouring of the Holy Spirit before the end of the world:

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
(Mal 4:5-6)

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
“And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
(Joel 2:28-32)

Emmett O'Regan said...

But the conversions that will take place during this time period will not be universal. Evil people will still keep on going on doing evil right up until the end of the world.

"And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
(Rev 22:10-15)

Paradoxically, it is right after this time period that the Antichrist will appear, and put to death the Two Witnesses who are responsible for bringing about the Second Pentecost. But Jesus will bring the Antichrist's appearance to nothing with the sword of his mouth, when he summons the sword against Gog and Magog during the battle of Armageddon:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
(2 Thes 2:8)

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."
(Matt 10:34)


"From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
(Rev 19:11-21)

"For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
(Rev 16:14-16)

Emmett O'Regan said...

"And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Rev 20:7-10)

“Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? But on that day, the day that Gog shall come against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, my wrath will be roused in my anger. For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence. And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground. I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Lord GOD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur. So I will show my greatness and my holiness and make myself known in the eyes of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
(Ezek 38:17-23)

benjoyce said...

so just before the Antichrist we have the 2nd pentacost where according to Fr. Gobbi's locutions, the earth is transformed

BUT MMP (Gobbi), the BVM states
#357t "The Holy Spirit will come down as fire, but in a manner different from his first coming: it will be a fire which will burn and transform everything, which will sanctify and renew the earth from its foundations.".......

Anonymous said...

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. the supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. the Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580


I just scrolled down through the articles of CCC and could not find anything with the reference to 2nd Pentecost before Antichrist coming - anybody can help with this?

thanks, anon11

Anonymous said...

Emmet:
"The Catechism places this period of conversion just before the final persecution of the Church under the Antichrist"

Can you, please, show me in which articles of the CCC is it precisely written that the period of conversion will take place BEFORE the final tribulations with Antichrist? Not the Revelation, not the OT, but the CCC - the Catechism is extremely logical. to think that massive conversion of the people will happen BEFORE the tribulations where logically it can happen only during it and because of it (and it is stated in the Catechism in the articles which I provided) is very confusing.

I will appreciate the help.
Thanks, anon11

Emmett O'Regan said...

Just immediately before your quotes above, in CCC 674:

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.568 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."569 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"570 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",571 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".

mum6kids said...

Emmett
Is it perhaps the case that the conversion of the Jews is happening?
There seems to be a surge in the number of Jewish people coming to Christ, many as Catholics, and there's quite a lot of Jews joining protestant communities too.
Some of my Catholic friends are Jewish. I'm sure that wouldn't have been the case for my parents generation???
As God doesn't override free will, the conversations are more likely to happen as a stream leading to a flood rather than a kind of crash-bang-wallop event???

Anonymous said...

Emmet,

the glorious Messiah suspension until the conversion of the Jews does not address my question - why to you state that it has to happen BEFORE the time of Antichrist/last tribulation? It is NOT stated as such anywhere in Catechism, nor it is in the Scripture - it is only stated that before Second Coming of Jesus Christ Jews have to convert.
As per words of Jesus Himself it looks exactly that it will be time of tribulation ( AQntichrist) when people will have the last chance to convert - and nations ( including Jews) will do so, but not before, but during it.

That's how I was always taught.
And I do not see any other way by CCC

anon11

Anonymous said...

The conversion of the Jews and all other nations has been happening through the whole history during last 2000 years - and continue to happen.

the recognition of the Jewish religious leaders that Jesus Christ IS their Messiah might happen as a separate moment in the future, I just do not see it anywhere stated to be happening BEFORE the times of last trial, but before the time of the Second Coming.
Logically speaking, why would anybody convert out of the blue before the times of tribulation - that is not how it works with human nature. It is not also state as such in the CCC or the Scripture.

That's why I am asking - where does this timing come from.
Catholic Church nowadays does not consider Antichrist to be a certain person, rather a combination of special characteristics in the world:

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. the Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577


anon11


p.s. Emmett, is there a way to avoid this annoying typing of the letters every time?

Anonymous said...

Interesting article in Spirit Daily, that one of the catholic "prophets" state that Mary will come in 2017 to usher in the new Christian peace. Notice nothing was said about Jesus' return. The 2017 date ties with Fatima, and China is still under the power of the Red Dragon. Russia no longer is.

Anonymous said...

20 May 2013 08:28 Do you have a link?

Bernadette said...

Per your quoted scripture, Emmett:

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had 'received the mark of the beast'
(which is ready to be implemented)
and those who worshiped its image.
** THESE TWO WERE THROWN ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword........etc.
(Rev 19:11-21)

((* Note it says that the beast and false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire.....then......there comes another occurrence))

"AND WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE ENDED, SATAN WILL BE RELEASED FROM HIS PRISON and will COME OUT TO DECEIVE the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of THE SAINTS and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and ***the DEVIL who had deceived them WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND SULFUR WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET (already) WERE, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
(Rev 20:7-10)

This clearly defines two separate events where the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake.... and then after 1000 years (not necessarily literal time) satan himself is released, attacks, and is again defeated to be thrown into the lake along with the other two previous evil ones. This is very clearly defined in Scripture.

Anonymous said...

for mitigated millennarians a.k.a followers of Fr.Ianuzi/Mark mallett/MDM/Vassula et al:


676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. the Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577

Bernadette said...

Anonymous:

None of those people, Fr. Iannuzzi, Mark Mallett or Vassula support millenarianism, nor do their supporters.

Bernadette said...

St. Augustine provided FOUR interpretations of the "thousand year" period. The one most commonly quoted today is that it refers to the period since the resurrection of Christ until now. However, that was JUST ONE interpretation, likely made popular in countering the heresy of millenarianism at the time. In light of what has been said by several Church Fathers, ONE OF AUGUSTINE'S OTHER INTERPRETATIONS IS PERHAPS MORE SUITED:

"Those who, on the strength of this passage [of Revelation 20:1-6], have suspected that the first resurrection is future and bodily, have been moved, among other things, specially by the number of a thousand years, as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period, a holy leisure after the labors of six thousand years since man was created… (and) there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years; and that it is for this purpose the saints rise, viz.; to celebrate the Sabbath. And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints in that Sabbath shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God…" —De Civitate Dei [The City of God], Catholic University of America Press, Bk XX, Ch. 7

Bernadette said...

Anonymous:

Re: 676 catechism quote

What the Magisterium hasn’t condemned, however, is the possibility of a temporal kingdom whereby Christ reigns spiritually from above for a triumphant period of time symbolized by the number of “a thousand years,” when Satan is chained in the abyss, and the Church enjoys a “Sabbath rest.” When this question was put to Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) when he was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he responsed:

"The Holy See has not yet made any definitive pronouncement in this regard." —Il Segno del Soprannauturale, Udine, Italia, n. 30, p. 10, Ott. 1990; Fr. Martino Penasa presented this question of a “millenary reign” to Cardinal Ratzinger

Anonymous said...

http://www.spiritdaily.com/johnstoncommentary.htm

Here is the link. I would exercise caution as he appears to be supportive of Medjugorje, and the Church has not ruled on that.

Anonymous said...

> http://www.spiritdaily.com/johnstoncommentary.htm

"Grow a garden, put in some fruit trees, learn how to can, get a supply of wood, and a place to burn it. "

Good grief, really?

Anonymous said...

Good points on your skepticism. Where exactly would you do that - grow a garden? Even if you live out in the country, eventually, the chaos will reach out there. However, it is good to have personal protection in case we do have societal chaos. That will be primary.

Bernadette said...

"Then I saw thrones, those who sat on them were entrusted with judgement. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the world of God, and who had not worshipped the beast or its image, nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE AND THEY REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. 5. THE REST OF THE DEAD DID NOT COME TO LIFE UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE OVER. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. 6. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for the thousand years." (Rev 4-6) When the thousand years are completed satan will be released from his prison. (Rev 20: 7)

The Body—the Church—will follow Christ, its Head, through its own Passion, and thus, it's resurrection.
----
Timeline per Revelations:
1. Antichrist arises but is defeated by Christ and thrown into hell with false prophet. (Rev 19:20)

2. Satan is chained for a “thousand years,” after which he will be released for a short time.” (Rev 20: 1-3)

3. The saints reign after a “first resurrection" (Rev 20: 4-6)

4. After that period of time, Satan is released, who then makes one last assault upon the Church. (Rev 20:7)

5. But fire falls from heaven and consumes the devil who is thrown “into the pool of fire” where “the beast and the false prophet were.” (Rev 20: 8 -10)

6. Jesus returns in glory to receive His Church, the dead are raised and judged according to their deeds, fire falls and a New Heavens and a New Earth are made, inaugurating eternity. (Rev 20: 11-21)

This clearly describes what is coming in the near future. It is not the end of the world approaching, but the end of an era, and the new one is already in it's beginning stages.

benjoyce said...

During the German block by the Commies post WWII, the germans were literally eating the bark off trees. Why not us with the antichrist?

Bernadette said...

I and every other orthodox Christian feel certain that there will be a resurrection of the flesh followed by a thousand years in a rebuilt, embellished, and enlarged city of Jerusalem, as was announced by the Prophets Ezekiel, Isaias and others… A man among us named John, one of Christ’s Apostles, received and foretold that the followers of Christ would dwell in Jerusalem for a thousand years, and that afterwards the universal and, in short, everlasting resurrection and judgment would take place. —St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 81, The Fathers of the Church, Christian Heritage
----
Also the prince of devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule… —4th century Ecclesiastical writer, Lactantius, “The Divine Institutes”, The ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 211
----
"Therefore, the Son of the most high and mighty God… shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who… will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command… —Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, The ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 211
----
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips. Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid… There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea… On that day, The Lord shall again take it in hand to reclaim the REMNANT OF HIS PEOPLE." (Isaiah 11:4-11)
----
There is a family catechism that was created by Jerry and Gwen Coniker called 'The Apostolate’s Family Catechism', which has been approved by the Vatican. The papal theologian for Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II (Cardinal Ciappi) wrote in a letter included in its introductory pages:

"Yes, a miracle was promised at Fatima, the greatest miracle in the history of the world, second only to the Resurrection. And that miracle will be an era of peace which has never really been granted before to the world." —Mario Luigi Cardinal Ciappi, October 9th, 1994; he also gave his stamp of approval in a separate letter officially recognizing the Family Catechism “as a sure source for authentic Catholic doctrine” (Sept. 9th, 1993); p. 35

On August 24th, 1989, in another letter, Cardinal Ciappi wrote:

"The “Marian Era of Evangelization Campaign” can put into motion a chain of events to bring about that era of peace promised at Fatima. With His Holiness Pope John Paul, we look expectantly and prayerfully for this era to begin with the dawn of the third millennium, the year 2001." —The Apostolate’s Family Catechism, p. 34

Bernadette said...

"And we hear today the groaning [of creation] as no one has ever heard it before… The Pope does indeed cherish a great expectation that the millennium of divisions will be followed by a millennium of unifications. He has in some sense the vision that… now, precisely at the end, we could rediscover a new unity through a great common reflection." —On the Threshold of a New Era, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1996, p. 231
-----
"The more noteworthy of the prophecies bearing upon “latter times” seem to have one common end, to announce great calamities impending over mankind, the triumph of the Church, and the RENOVATION OF THE WORLD." —Catholic Encyclopedia, Prophecy, www.newadvent.org
------
…at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace. —Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 715
--------
The Catholic Church, which is the kingdom of Christ on earth, [is] destined to be spread among all men and all nations… —POPE PIUS XI, Quas Primas, Encyclical, n. 12, Dec. 11th, 1925; cf. Matt 24:14
------
This teaching of the Church Fathers was reaffirmed by the Magisterium in a theological commission struck by the bishops in 1952 that concluded that it is not contrary to the Catholic Faith to maintain…

…a hope in some mighty triumph of Christ here on earth before the final consummation of all things. Such an occurrence is not excluded, is not impossible, it is not all certain that there will not be a prolonged period of triumphant Christianity before the end.

Steering clear of millenarianism, they rightly concluded:

If before that final end there is to be a period, more or less prolonged, of triumphant sanctity, such a result will be brought about not by the apparition of the person of Christ in Majesty but by the operation of those powers of sanctification which are now at work, the Holy Ghost and the Sacraments of the Church. —The Teaching of the Catholic Church
----
Thus, the “thousand years” should be understood symbolically. What is certain is that the “period of peace” prophesied by Our Lady, the “new age” spoken of by Pope Benedict, and the “third millenium” of unity anticipated by John Paul II are not to be understood as some kind of utopia on earth whereby sin and death are forever vanquished (or that Christ reigns on earth in His risen flesh!). Rather, they are to be understood as the fulfillment of Our Lord’s commission to bring the Gospel to the ends of the earth and the preparation of the Church to receive Him in glory. The ecclesiastically approved mystics of the 20th century tell us that it will be a period of unparalleled sanctity in the Church and a triumph of God’s mercy in the world:

…the efforts of Satan and of evil men are shattered and come to naught. In spite of Satan’s anger, the Divine Mercy WILL TRIUMPH over the whole world and WILL BE WORSHIPPED BY ALL SOULS. —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary of St. Faustina, n. 1789

Anonymous said...

Bernadette, you may post sheets from Revelation but it still does not change the fact that Fr.Ianuzzi, Mark Mallett and YOU are all embracing the heresy of millennarism, condemned by Catholic Church repeatedly.

Anonymous said...


"Therefore, the Son of the most high and mighty God… shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who… will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command… —Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, The ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 211

LOL

Do you even know that Lactantius is a CHIALIST?

Rachmaninov said...

This glorious and at the same time dramatic vision reminds the Church in all the ages of her destiny of light in the kingdom of heaven, and of comfort in the trials she must bear during her earthly pilgrimage. As long as this world endures, history will always be the theatre of the clash between God and Satan, between good and evil, between grace and sin, between life and death.
Pope John Paul II Homily for Feast of the Assumption 15 August 1998
Where is there room for a temporal Kingdom?

Rachmaninov said...

And of course just to clarify that is a magisterial teaching!

Anonymous said...

Where is there room for a temporal Kingdom?

Nowhere. there is not going to be any temporal Kingdom in the future.

But they all repeat the same talking points as you see - including the chialist Lactantius, the obscure quote which is attributed to Cardinal ratzinger ( but can not be vetted independently) and cut&paste the St.Augustine in order to fit the lie of "four interpretations" conveniently leaving behind the time factor - St. Augustine never did hold SIMULTANEOUSLY all four, but evolved in his vies to finally embrace amillennialistic one and that one is a base of the Catholic Church interpretation.

These repeated untruthful claims about St.Augustine are as if one would name the a child learning math - "he holds 4 approaches to the simple problem 2x2=4" - first the child solves it as 2x2=3, then 2x2=5, then2x2=2, and finally learns that the correct answer is 2x2=4 - obviously, the child has had the wrong approaches at some point, but nobody honest ( and sane) will claim that the child STILL hold all four "interpretations".

anon 11

Anonymous said...

Rachmaninov said...

And of course just to clarify that is a magisterial teaching!


Never mind, it is overthrown by an obscure and unprovable quote attributed to cardinal Ratzinger circa 1990.

the quote that can not be foud anywhere else except one book, written by a priest, without any reference to it published elsewhere for vetting.
A clear hearsay, in other words.

But it is more important than CCC for our mitigated millennarians :-)


anon11

Anonymous said...

On the previous thread about the same issue of "era of peace utopia/millennarian theory one of the participants Keith summarized it in a great way:

Keith said...

"not Christ coming in Glory in Judgement, but a coming in Mercy and Illumination."

Ah, this is interesting. I just noticed these new passages in my Bible last night!

2 Tim 3:12-13 "In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, [b] unless you're born during the 1,000 year era of peace [/b]; while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived, that is, until the 1,000 year Era of Peace, when there won't really be much evil anymore. [/b]"

Philippians 1:29 "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.[b] Unless you're born during the Era of Peace, where you won't really suffer very much and everyone will believe. [/b]"

Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven. [b]Unfortunate are those born during the Era of Peace, for they won't be blessed with many rewards because they won't really suffer much. [/b]"

Mark 13:13 "All men will hate you because of me,[b] unless you're born during the Era of Peace. [/b]"

John 15:20 "No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also--[b] unless you're born during the Era of Peace.[/b]"

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind [b]that you must not be living in the 1,000 year Era of Peace yet [/b]."

21 April 2013 08:13

Rachmaninov said...

Yes,
that was a really good post of Keith's humorous but very much to the point!
www.divinemercypopes.com

Anonymous said...

Bernadette said...

Anonymous:

None of those people, Fr. Iannuzzi, Mark Mallett or Vassula support millenarianism, nor do their supporters.

yes, they all do and so do their supporters. They also ( and you, too- evident from your quotes) support rapture theory which is abundant between Protestants but is not recognized by catholic Church

Emmett O'Regan said...

anon11 - Typing in the letters before you post can be annoying... Unfortunately they are necessary to stop spam. Perhaps if you set up a profile you won't need to do this. The other people with profiles will be able to tell you whether they can post without typing in the weird looking letters...
The Two Witnesses are the ones responsible for the conversion of the Jews at the end-time, and they are in turn killed by the Beast that rises from the bottomless pit. So this suggests that the conversion of the Jews happens just prior to the final persecution of Christians under the Antichrist. But there may be some slight overlap here as well, with conversions taking place during the final Passover of the Church also. Indeed the fact that the conversion of the Jews occurs at the behest of the Two Witnesses, who are then killed by the Antichrist, rules out any period of a 1000 years in-between. St. Paul tells us that the conversion of the Jews will bring about the General Resurrection of the dead - which occurs only after the Second Coming of Christ and the destruction of the world by fire:

"For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"
(Rom 11:15)

Once the conversion of the Jews takes place, the Second Coming of Christ will be imminent - not a thousand years later. The man of sin will be revealed, who will put to death the Two Witnesses. But Jesus will come to destroy the Antichrist with the sword of His mouth.

Emmett O'Regan said...

Ben - those quotes of Fr. Gobbi refers to the new creation after the destruction of the world by fire. It states "the new heaven and the new earth" - which are only created after the Last Judgment.

Bernadette - the False Prophet and the Beast being thrown alive into the lake of fire occurs at the Last Judgment, once they have been resurrected from the dead. Scholars have long realised that the Book of Revelation is recapitulatory in structure. Rev 20 recapitulates Rev 19. All Catholic theologians since St. Victorinus of Pettau, Tyconius, and St. Augustine have recognized this. Fr. Iannuzzi is trying to eradicate 1,600 years of the development of Catholic theology by rejecting this, and dragging us back to an overly simplistic understanding of the Apocalypse, which is based on reading it as one sequential narrative. This was excusable in the first few centuries of Christianity. But, over time, theologians finally began to grasp that the Book of Revelation constantly recapitulates itself, providing a vital key for understanding the book as a whole. The lake of fire only exists before the throne of God in heaven, and people can only be thrown into it after the Last Judgment - it doesn't exist on earth. The Beast and False Prophet being thrown alive into the lake of fire only helps to prove that this recapitulates the Last Judgment and Satan being thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20.

benjoyce said...

Wait a second Bernedette. Millinarianism is a heresy which we cannot support. Fr. Iannuzzi has defended MMP against many forms of this heresy. Now he is being accused of supporting this heresy in his books, in that, according to O'Regan and Walford et al., ANY pristine type society before the last Judgment is millinarian heresy

Fr. Iannuzzi abundently disagrees. I'm waiting to see how Fr. Iannuzzi responds and how. Personally, I'm not going to pretend to be a theologian, I have to go to work.

BTW Thomas Fahey who is huge in understanding and promoting Louisa Piccarata- Living in the Divine Will would, I think, agree with O'Regan and Walford. He too has written a book on the end times. You can google him if you want.

Anonymous said...

OK, I see that the famous twisted and cut quote from Pius XI is again paraded around ( by Bernadette), so I will repeat - the quote is taken out of context and it's unhonest to cut it in a way to fit your view, and if one has to do that - his/her purpose is not form the good.

Bernadette said:

--------
The Catholic Church, which is the kingdom of Christ on earth, [is] destined to be spread among all men and all nations… —POPE PIUS XI, Quas Primas, Encyclical, n. 12, Dec. 11th, 1925; cf. Matt 24:14

========================
Anon11 said:
http://www.love2learn.net/reviews/bkbteduc/mason.htm?page=11

12. It was surely right, then, in view of the common teaching of the sacred books, that the Catholic Church, which is the kingdom of Christ on earth, destined to be spread among all men and all nations, should with every token of veneration salute her Author and Founder in her annual liturgy as King and Lord, and as King of Kings. And, in fact, she used these titles, giving expression with wonderful variety of language to one and the same concept, both in ancient psalmody and in the Sacramentaries. She uses them daily now in the prayers publicly offered to God, and in offering the Immaculate Victim. The perfect harmony of the Eastern liturgies with our own in this continual praise of Christ the King shows once more the truth of the axiom: Legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi. The rule of faith is indicated by the law of our worship.
=========

NOWHERE an NEVER does Pius XI ( or any other Pope for that matter) defines this spreading among the nations and Church as a Kingdom of Christ on Earth ( which it is) as a FUTURE event which still has to happen. Catholic Church as a Kingdom of God has been spreading throughout the nations since Our Lord's Ascension into heaven in the first century - where it was several dozens to several hundreds of people in the Church and now, in 2013 we have a billion people all over the world.
and this is the whole quote from Pope's encyclica Quas Primas, upon reading of which one has clear understanding that the quote pertains not to imaginary millenialistic views of future spreading of the Kingdom of God, but CURRENT ( for the year of 1925) necessity and task: "should with every token of veneration salute her Author and Founder in her annual liturgy as King and Lord, and as King of Kings. " and later the paragraph relates to some will say ecumenical reality of the catholic Church ( NOT and in the PAST, not the future).

anon11

benjoyce said...

The discussion on this topic focuses on the tension between two approaches to understanding the book of Revelations:

1) One position tends to heavily suppress anything explained (explicated) by modern private revelation concerning these times which both sides agree is the time of the book of Revelations.

2) The other side agrees with Church Tradition BUT there are many areas that are still unkown concerning the future. As Fr. Iannuzzi states, these areas are explicated in modern private revelation which the vast majority in the Church avoids.

Eventually the Holy Spirit will come down in unavoidable fashion and the nay-sayers to private revelation will realize that they had been suppressing the Holy Spirit.

benjoyce said...

also: Concerning private revelation. It will be the only survival mechanism to survive the upcoming tragic events.

Locutions.org states:

Nov. 25th 2012 -Jesus states: "You must learn to hear my voice now. When the events come, I will speak to you and guide you. Before then, you must grow accustomed to my voice. Many would see this as extraordinary, but the events will be extraordinary and the helps that you will need must also be extraordinary."

Mary- " Another hour of darkness is coming upon the whole earth and there is only one place to survive, in my Immaculate Heart where God has stored up all my mystical favors. These favors are also for you. You will need them in the darkness and you must find them now. When the darkness comes, you will not be able to discover your way". Locutions.org March 21st 2012.

The Virgin Mary states in the Fr. Gobbi's book: #154m, June 3rd 1978 "Whoever does not enter into this refuge (her Immaculate Heart) will be carried away by the great tempest which has already begun to rage."


From Pana Illinois

recently Sharon Fitzpatrick states:

"RECALL THAT I TOLD YOU THAT AT THE APPOINTED TIME YOU SHALL RECALL ALL I HAVE SAID TO YOU AND BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL BE GIVEN INSTRUCTION NOT MEANT FOR ALL. YOU ARE THE UNITY OF SOULS PREPARED FOR THESE TIMES AND MY CHILDREN, I HAVE PREPARED YOU WELL."

SUNDAY, MAY 19, 2013 PENTECOST


MY DEAR DEAR PRECIOUS LITTLE CHILDREN,

PUT YOUR TRUST MY CHILDREN, IN GOD, NOT IN MAN. THE TROUBLES OF THE WORLD ARE CAUSED BY THE EVILS WITHIN MAN AND ONLY GOD IS THE REMEDY. I SAY TO YOU DO NOT BE DISCOURAGED. INSTEAD PRAY DEVOUTLY AND TRUST.

BECAUSE THIS IS THE DAY OF THE LORD I PRAY THAT YOU RECEIVE THE PEACE YOU NEED. LET ALL YOUR FEARS AND WORRIES FALL FROM YOU. I AM WITH YOU IN ALL TROUBLES AND MISERIES, THEREFORE, THOUGH I CANNOT INTERFERE WITH THE WISDOM OF GOD, I CAN HELP YOU WITH ENCOURAGEMENT AND THE PROMISE TO CARE FOR YOU ALWAYS.

YOU ARE BLESSED DEAR CHILDREN BEYOND WORDS. BUT YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS. SO IF YOU KNOW IT, TRUST IT. YOU ARE LOVED BY ALL OF HEAVEN AND YOU ARE UNDER THE WATCHFUL EYE OF HEAVEN.

OH MY LOVES, I GIVE TO YOU ASSURANCE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ALSO WITH YOU. RECALL THAT I TOLD YOU THAT AT THE APPOINTED TIME YOU SHALL RECALL ALL I HAVE SAID TO YOU AND BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL BE GIVEN INSTRUCTION NOT MEANT FOR ALL. YOU ARE THE UNITY OF SOULS PREPARED FOR THESE TIMES AND MY CHILDREN, I HAVE PREPARED YOU WELL.

AS I DRAW YOU ALL DEEP WITHIN MY HEART I BLESS YOU IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

AS YOU RECEIVE THE BLESSING OF CHRIST I ASK THAT YOU PRAISE AND THANK GOD NOW AND FOREVER.

Anonymous said...

"also: Concerning private revelation. It will be the only survival mechanism to survive the upcoming tragic events. "

Absolutely NOT true.

And a big red flag on anybody proclaiming that ( I do not mean you, Ben, I suppose you are just repeating some of the "visions")

if you consider CCC and Catholic Church "suppressing" the false revelations - that it what is supposed to do - in order to guard Catholics from the evil


anon11

benjoyce said...

I'd say it is true because the Holy Spirit says so. Is it against Church teaching for the Holy Spirit to show up and tell us which end is up? As long as this phenomenon does not deviate from Church teaching than the Holy Spirit should be left to work unimpeded.

It is a fact that man can obstruct Graces from God where they "fall to the ground" wasted? YES, and this is what is happening with the rejection of Marian apparitions by our numerous Church experts.

soon, according to Locutions.org, Medjugorje will explode with an amount of Grace which will dwarf previous levels.

What did the Pharasees think of the 1st Pentacost? "IGNORE THOSE FLAMES YOU KOOK! WHAT ARE YOU? DRUNK ON WINE!"

Are there modern day Pharasees? Yes, Are they doing the same thing? What we are at least witnessing and we are supposed to be experiencing now, is a movement of the Holy Spirit in preperation of the BIG second Pentecost.

I still would like to read Fr. Iannuzzi response, if it ever happens, to the charge of heresy of millanarianism. He had defended Fr. Gobbi of this extensively and now he's accused of the same charge.

I would clearly guess anonymous that you are not a "Charismatic?" and neither are Walford or O'Reagan. I would label myself as one but there can be problems in with some Charismatic phenomenon.

I appreciate the perspective of Walford and O'Reagan. They do make a lot of sense, but, I have to listen to Iannuzzi's position again if he ever responds.

Did Noah ignore the Holy Spirit when he was told to build the ark? Did Noah and his family survive? Did the towns people die just after they banged on the doors for Noah to open the doors as they made blood curdeling screams? God said to Noah don' let them in.

Is the BVM the new ark? Yes,
Will she keep the doors of here Immaculate Heart, which is the ONLY save refuge, open till the last moment, YES. But then they must close to protect those inside, just as in Noah's day.

(this can be found on www.locutions.org)

If you don't enter her Immaculate Heart you will be at least "dead meat" But not necessarily damned as in Noah's day.

There are severe consequences for ignoring the Holy Spirit. Fr. Iannuzzi has kept privy to such manifistations of the Holy Spirit, he claims, to taylor his doctrine on the meaning of The Book of Revelations.

Time will tell whether of not he is correct. I'm waiting to see.

Jamey said...

Ben the Church has yet to approve these apparitions so religious and laity are free to reject especially when there is heresy, heterodoxy and scandal as is the case of Medj. Most other modern visions have a connection to Medjugorje thus raise suspicions. For the life of me I cannot see how Medjugorje can be approved, if Medjugorje is true Bayside could be true, in fact I find Bayside more sensible than Medjugorje and that has been condemned outright!

Genuine seers do not lie and the evidence is strong that the Medj seers lied under oath early. The sheer weight of messages that have falsehoods or contradictions cannot be denied. When ones faith is built on Medjugorje it is built on shifting sand. As mum6kids says the lack of early intervention with the matter has lead to this madness - unfortunately under JPII's reign too many things were left as is and eventually spiraled out of control.

The local bishop condemns the apparition and pilgrimages, and then the Vatican spokesman Navarro-Valls comes out and somewhat reverses this essentially saying just don't call it a pilgrimage. This has been the typical confusion in the post conciliar Church which has led to the "devastated vineyard".

benjoyce said...

Pope Francis visited Medjugorje in 2006 says my "reliable source". I think it appears that the pope will give the "green light" to Medjugorje and graces will flourish.

A man named Pendergast, the top military official from Ireland testified that Bishop Peric who tried to condemn Medjugorje said that he doesn't believe in ANY Marian apparitions, including Lourdes and Fatima. No wonder JPII and Ratzinger took away juridstiction from that diocese when Peric's predicesor Zanic tried to condemn it.

There is a huge number of Bishops and Cardinals and probably Pope Francis who approve of Medjugorje to date. I should also include JPII and B16. I'm sure you can find a few catholic lay people who disagree with the numerous prelates who judge favorably.

Your free to reject Medjugorje. The problem is rejectiog God's grace and inhibiting others trying to seek God's grace and especially during the end times when such alleged manifistations of the Holy Spirit are manuvering to prepare humanity for the second Pentecost.

BTW, St Augustine would not know that the Red Dragon of the Apoc. is athiestic Communism, nor would he have known that the Black Beast is freemasonry as revealed by Fr. Gobbi. An example of how Revelations becomes explicit with private revelation.

Jamey said...

I think the positive views supposedly from JPII B16 are from the Medjugorje spin machine. It appears Medj was eventually used as a political tool by JPII to help bring down communism but he didnt know what to do with it afterward. (16min mark below) In 1991 E Michael Jones spoke to then Cardinal Ratzinger in Texas who said Medj was a fraud.(19.30 min mark)

Check out the following interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK5YPQ4xIuM

I believe Jones is telling the truth re the Ratzinger comment - he could have been a hit on the Catholic circuit pulling in serious coin but for telling the truth and not pandering to all and sundry has lost many potential subscribers along the journey. He is not a guy to pull a punch.

benjoyce said...

I don't believe E M Jones

Marian Mov. Priests- Fr. Gobbi

367m ".....to the children to whom I am appearing at Medjugorje"

If Med. is false than so is MMP and Locutions.org. and many other Priv Rev that endorse Medjugorje.

benjoyce said...

i just listened to some of that video on youtube. Jones says "no one has authority over the bishop (of Mostar/medugorje diocese concerning authority of an apparition) "not even the Bishop of Rome" ie the pope

Not true the pope does have authority over the local bishop and JPII and B16 took away condemning authority from Zanic and Peric.

mum6kids said...

Couple of questions from your book Emmett - which is very goood btw; I wonder why you chose to associate the lion with America rather than Britain, which has the lion as a symbol since I don't know when? Also as the lion becomes a man, couldn't that be a reference to the other prophecies that England (the lion being more a symbol of England than the other UK countries) will convert.
The leopard with four heads seems more like America with it's influence over the four corners of the globe (even China has MacDonalds)
So I'm interested in what made you choose the opposite.
Also as "plague" is part of the prophecy I was wondering about the role of the 1918 flu pandemic that killed around 480million people worldwide.
I wonder if it's an echo or type of the last plague as the plague that decimated a third to a half of Europe in the 14th century might be??
D'you think they have any eschatalogical value??

mum6kids said...

ps also noting that Bl Francisco and Jacinta died in the flu pandemic.

I have some other questions in my head about "plague" as we face the exponential and unexplained rise in autoimmune disease across the globe, even in hotter countries where autoimmune disease has not been previously so prevalent...
Perhaps this play on my mind as it's effected my family.

anyway I'd be interested in views.

Anonymous said...

I'd say it is true because the Holy Spirit says so.

That is your assumption and it is not true. You do not know WHO is talking in those revelations/locutions/prophecies.
In 99 cases from 100 it is NOT the Holy Spirit at all.

anon11

Anonymous said...

Idon't believe E M Jones

Marian Mov. Priests- Fr. Gobbi

367m ".....to the children to whom I am appearing at Medjugorje"

If Med. is false than so is MMP and Locutions.org. and many other Priv Rev that endorse Medjugorje.

And I, personally do not believe in MMP

anon11

Emmett O'Regan said...

Thanks mum6kids!
The main reason I equate the leopard with four heads with Britain is because we are told that dominion was given to it:

"After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it."
(Dan 7:6)

This dominion appears to be over the Holy Land itself - because we find later that the dominion is then taken away from the four beasts and given to the "saints of the Most High" (who Daniel would have equated with the Jewish people):

"And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’
(Dan 7:27)

While this originally referred to the Jewish restoration under Judas Maccabeus, it also relates to the end-time restoration of the land of Israel also. Daniel is specifically told by the Archangel Michael that the vision concerns what is to happen to the Jewish people in the "latter days":

"...Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”
(Dan 10:13-14)

I originally thought that the lion represented Britain also, for the same reasons you do (i.e. that the dominion given to it is over the whole world). But it just seems to make better sense if we interpret Britain as being symbolised by the leopard, and that the dominion given to it is over the Holy Land. It's probably not that important though... But it seems like a definite forgone conclusion that the four beasts of Daniel represent the four major players of WWII - especially given the fact that it concerns a persecution of the Jews being followed by a restoration of the Holy Land.
Also the three lions on the Royal Arms of England are often regarded as leopards. Here's a quote from Wikipedia:

"In heraldry, the Royal Arms of England[1] is a coat of arms symbolising England and its monarchs.[2] Its blazon is Gules, with three lions passant guardant (often known as leopards) in pale or armed and langued azure,[3][4] meaning three identical gold lions with blue tongues and claws, walking and facing the observer, arranged in a column on a red background."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_England

I agree that the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic appears to tie into this in some way - especially given the links with Fatima.

Jamey said...

"If Med. is false than so is MMP and Locutions.org. and many other Priv Rev that endorse Medjugorje."

Correct.

mum6kids I suffer from chronic fatigue which many link to autoimmune disease. As a kid I got a stack of amalgam fillings and was very sick for a few days afterward. I also went from top student in the class to pretty avg. I wouldn't be surprised if the rise in autoimmune is associated somewhat to the heavy metals bombarding bodies combined with adulterated food and water supplies, electric pollution etc - some are more sensitive than others to these things. Unfortunately apart from a handful of doctors the medical profession is unable to deal with these issues.

benjoyce said...

Emmett

I'm a firm supporter of Fr. Gobbi but

allow me to play against Fr. Gobbi and you can answer it.

I'll accuse Fr. Gobbi of millinarianism due to the following statement from the BVM in his book.

453f "The new era, which I am preparing for you, coincides with the defeat of Satan and of his universal reign. All his power is destroyed. He is bound, with all the wicked spirits, and shut up in hell from which he will not be able to get out to do harm in the world. Herin, Christ reigns in the spleandor of his glorified body, and the Immaculate Heart of your heavenly Mother triumphs in the light of her body, assumed into the glory of paradise.

obviously the key phrase here is that Jesus reigns in his glorified body

Anonymous said...

Benjoyce,

If you clearly see that Fr. Gobbi is millennialist and it is a condemned heresy, how can you support his writings?
MMP is wrong and prophecies wrong ideas.

anan111

benjoyce said...

I assume he is not and so does Emmett. I'm wondering how to address this. I don't assume with great pride that Fr. Gobbi is a phoney after he was personally invited perhaps a dozen years in a row by JPII to the pope's private chapel to concelebrate Mass. JPII not only has the charisma as pope but he also has a Ph.d in mystical theology. JPII would not invite a "Kook" into his chapel many years in a row. What we should conclude is that this is a tacit approval from JPII of Fr. Gobbi.

but you know better than the pope?

Rachmaninov said...

If I can just add something here
IF the messages of Fr Gobbi are true, then they have to refer to the final coming because of the references to complete defeat of Satan and Jesus returning in His glorified body. To me the issue is Fr Gobbi's interpretation of them, no doubt that is millenarian. Thankfully it is the Magisterium rather than the visionary which decides on tyhe authentic interpretation (as Sr Lucia was happy to state)
For anyone who has not seen the analysis of the MMP revelations, please have a look here: http://divinemercypopes.com/?page_id=15
Its the second article down

Anonymous said...

Blogger benjoyce said...

I assume he is not and so does Emmett

Let Emmett speak for himself and so far I do not see his endorsement of MMP

anon11

Anonymous said...


but you know better than the pope?

maybe :-)this is the instance of the Pope being a private human being and not the Head of the Church

private invitation are NOT endorsements and neither are they infallible blessings.

Fr. Gobbi has numerous propheciesproven wrong and his teachings are the teachings of millennialism, which is a condemned heresy.
Which does not mean that he personally is evil or does not mena good - that is the problem with all those visions and locutions.

anon11

Emmett O'Regan said...

Ben - that message you cited by Fr. Gobbi doesn't actually contain any elements of millenarianism. It states that all of Satan's power would be destroyed, and that he would be bound and never be able to get out (i.e. forever):

"All his power is destroyed. He is bound, with all the wicked spirits, and shut up in hell from which he will not be able to get out to do harm in the world."

If it stated that the Devil would be bound for a thousand years at some point in the future (a limited duration and not forever), and there would be some sort of earthly paradise during this period, this would be millenarianism. But Satan being bound forever in the abyss is something which will happen after the Last Judgement. The "new era" being mentioned by Fr. Gobbi in that message actually refers to the new creation, after the complete destruction of the earth by fire.
Out of all the modern seers, Fr. Gobbi is one of the only ones I'm inclined to believe was genuine. But I would be willing to ditch these messages like a hot potato if any problems ever arose with them. In his link above, Stephen Walford gives a really good analysis of how while privately Fr. Gobbi adhered to a millenarian worldview, the messages themselves actually don't leave any room for millenarianism. So the fact that there are two different conflicting theologies here, suggests that the messages are not the product of Fr. Gobbi's own imagination. His apparent support of Medjugorje is much more problematic for me. But the fact that he edited this support out in some versions of the Blue Book shows that he had doubted whether this was an authentic locution himself, and couldn't be sure that it wasn't just his own worldview seeping into the messages. This is a known phenomenon in mystical theology, and one of the dangers Cardinal Ratzinger warned about in his excellent Theological Commentary to the Message of Fatima in 2000. Pope Benedict XIV also goes into some detail in this in his chapters on heroic virtue.

mum6kids said...

Thanks Emmett, interesting answer.
The other thing that I wonder about the lion is whether it, in any way, could be the lion of Judah. It seems to me that, despite the obvious problems the Church has in America, that it is from America that the strongest message goes out. Many of us in the English speaking parts of the world have been brought back to, or into the Church thanks to American writers and converts. While I have Hebrew Catholic friends here in the UK, I think the biggest Jewish Christian and especially Catholic numbers are your side of the pond.
If America is the lion, could the lion also symbolise the Church born of the true lion of Judah??? Or is that a real stretch?
Also America has far more to do with Israel than we do now...not sure how that works with the prophecy.

I also think God has a lot more up His sleeve for Russia.

Jamey, I am sorry you have CFS/ME It is a truly hideous disease. I wonder about it within "God's plan" because it has received such a morally indefensible reaction from the politcal and medical elite.
Now that I have a more politically correct dysautonomic dx to go with it I have a cardio who is working with me.
I hope you have at least one doc who gets it.
God bless

Finally; Hitler as the little horn. That looks interesting. He was baptised Catholic, but there's good historical evidence that he became a Satanist. This makes me think of Solomon who was a true Prophet-priest-king; a type of Christ and then became a type of antiChrist complete with the number 666.

I can't help thinking that as Satan likes to mirror all things Christ that the Antichrist must be Jewish and Catholic in some way.
Other antichrists such as Antiochus and Attila the Hun were pagan gentiles, but they hadn't fallen from a great height they way Satan and Solomon did.
Does that make sense?
The general belief about the tribe of Dan would play into his being of Israel (if not Jewish/Judah) but I still think he would have to have something Catholic in his background so that Satan can get his mockery done.

Jamey said...

"Out of all the modern seers, Fr. Gobbi is one of the only ones I'm inclined to believe was genuine."

Likewise and something I should have elaborated on in an above comment. A guy from church gave me his book and it is edifying but I didn't see the Medj comment. One of the issues I have is could it be possible some of his messages are from the good side and some from the dark side - how did he go about discerning this. Have commented here before that many a great saint has difficulty at times telling the difference between a good angel and a devil and given Fr Gobbi had so many messages we can see that he may have been deceived in some especially if he believed every voice he heard was true.

With locutionists do they hear an audible voice in their soul, or do they get a feeling come over them in a form of knowledge or a combo of both? The first would be difficult to mess up whilst the latter would be easier to get ones own thoughts and feelings involved. If it is an audible voice saying "the consecration of Russia hasn't been done" I fail to see how the person can muddle it up - perhaps 1 in 100 messages due to human error. We can see why prophecy is a tricky subject.

.................................

Thanks Shell, I have found a decent doc but he takes a long time to see and also charges lots of money. Hadn't heard about Adolf being a Satanist - Pius XII use to perform long distance exorcisms on him many say it failed but could they have stunned the demons leading Hitler resulting in the strategic errors that brought about the Nazi's downfall. Also Pius XII's Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary took place on October 31, 1942 just before major turning points in World War II.

Emmett O'Regan said...

Not everyone who experiences locutions hears audible voices, and they can be notoriously difficult to distinguish from the thoughts of the seer themselves. Most times they come as large streams of information which the person recognises to be from an exterior source, and is beyond the limits of their own knowledge or intellect. In the case of Fr. Gobbi, his locutions even appear to have conflicted with his own particular beliefs on the millennium.
St. Teresa of Avila gives a detailed exposition of locutions, their form, means of reception, limitations, etc. in the third chapter of Interior Mansions - which I would recommend reading:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tic/tic20.htm

Also, as Card. Ratzinger stated in his theological commentary to the Message of Fatima:

"Interior vision is not fantasy but, as we have said, a true and valid means of verification. But it also has its limitations. Even in exterior vision the subjective element is always present. We do not see the pure object, but it comes to us through the filter of our senses, which carry out a work of translation. This is still more evident in the case of interior vision, especially when it involves realities which in themselves transcend our horizon. The subject, the visionary, is still more powerfully involved. He sees insofar as he is able, in the modes of representation and consciousness available to him. In the case of interior vision, the process of translation is even more extensive than in exterior vision, for the subject shares in an essential way in the formation of the image of what appears. He can arrive at the image only within the bounds of his capacities and possibilities. Such visions therefore are never simple photographs of the other world, but are influenced by the potentialities and limitations of the perceiving subject."

Jamey said...

Cheers Emmett.

benjoyce said...

From EWTN's site. This says that Fr. Iannuzzi's position is not heretical.


EWTN Catholic Q&A
Christ's return: How will it be (Anthony's Question)
Question from David Tolson on 09-02-2001:
Dear Dr. Geraghty:

Thanks for all of your hard work.

I am a newcomer to this sight and happened to read your response to Anthony on about 8/31. He asked about Christ's return and the 1,000 years. If I recall correctly, you indicated that there was nothing in the Church's tradition about Crist's return and an earthly paradise. I believe you were referring to the heresey of Millenarianism, in which the Church has condemned the belief that Christ would return in the flesh for a literal 1,000 years and reign in an earthly paradise. While this belief is a heresy, it is my understanding that many of the early Church Fathers taught that there was a variation of this belief that had not been ruled out by the Church, as reafirmed recently by Cardinal Ratzinger. This variation is different from the spiritual or modified millenarianism, which was also condemned by the Church. Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi, OSJ, wrote a thesis on this topic while studying at the Gregorian University in Rome, which has been publisher by St. John the Evangelist Press in Havertown,PA. The book, which deals with an intermediate "Eucharistic Reign" of Christ and an era of peace, is titled The Triumph of God's Kingdom in the Millennium and End Times. He covers the Apostolic Fathers, Nicene Fathers, Early Christian Writers and Apostolic Tradition in general. He also discusses certain doctors of the Church, such as Saint Augustine, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Thomas Acquinas, and Saint Robert Bellarmine. Are you familiar with this book and these teachings? If so, what are your thoughts. God bless you and your work!

Answer by Richard Geraghty on 09-08-2001:
Dear David,

I am not familiar with this book. But if Cardinal Ratzinger is happy with it, who am I to disagree with him?

Dr. Geraghty

Emmett O'Regan said...

Ben,

The EWTN apologist who answered that question clearly has no knowledge whatsoever of Fr. Ianuzzi's work. His first answer, in reply to Fr. Iannuzzi's millennial hypothesis is "I am not familiar with this book". His second reply equally betrays his lack of knowledge in this field:
"if Cardinal Ratzinger is happy with it, who am I to disagree with him?".
The apologist clearly just takes the word of the person posing the question at face value, and believes that Card. Ratzinger had reaffirmed "that there was a variation of this belief that had not been ruled out by the Church". This is obviously a reference to the vague and out of context words of Card. Ratzinger taken from a book published in Italian in 1990 - Il Segno del Soprannauturale (Udine, Italia, n. 30, p. 10, Ott. 1990) that are constantly cited by followers of Fr. Iannuzzi:
"The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard."
However even if we are to assume that above quote can definitely be attributed to Card. Ratzinger, the question he was asked was pretty open ended, and could have a variety of meanings. Also given that the quote is taken from a book written in Italian, it is very difficult to determine the true context of these words. The question was "Is a new era of Christian life immanent?", which could equally refer to the promised conversion of the Jews, Russia, etc. before the Second Coming of Christ.
We also need to take into consideration the fact that this quote attributed to Card. Ratzinger was in 1990 - which was indeed before the Church had made a "definitive pronouncement in this regard". Prior to 1990, the only magisterial teachings on millenarianism was the Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944, which stated that "The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely." This was not definitive, in that it still leaves some wiggle room for those espousing millenarian teachings. It merely warns that millenarianism cannot be safely taught, rather than condemning it outrightly. It was only when the Catechism was published in 1994 that the Church really did make a definitive condemnation of the teachings of millenarianism:

"The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism." CCC 676

So, in a nutshell, the EWTN apologist above clearly did not possess any knowledge in this field whatsoever, and his answer should be completely dismissed. This answer most definitely should not be considered as EWTN's official position on this subject.

Anonymous said...

"I am not familiar with this book. But if Cardinal Ratzinger is happy with it, who am I to disagree with him?"

How does he know Cardinal Ratzinger IS happy with it?
This statement in no way proves thet Fr. Ianuzzi is not actually prophesying heresy.
It is avoiding the answer.

anon11